reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Elizabeth, plainly, was at least a generation older than Blessed Mary. I find it unlikely that they would've shared a mother--they were related on how scripture is silent and tradition gives different answers (sisters is not one of those answers). (And I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception.) But do you believe that Mary never sinned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am not Catholic. I believe the Bible when it says "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus is the only Biblical exception I see to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am not Catholic. I believe the Bible when it says "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus is the only Biblical exception I see to this. Meaning, you do not believe that Mary is sinless or never sin. Is this what you are telling me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Yes. That is what I am telling you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 It's a good and wholesome thing to call her such. God Almighty lived in her womb and drew nourishment from her breasts--the Christian world is becoming too weak on Christ's deity for any reasonable man to object to calling her the Mother of God. If I understand you correctly, you are now simply telling me that the Mother of your God is a sinner. Not only that, even his grandmother Anne and grandfather Joachim and his great, great, great grandparents I wish you know them, are all sinners. Is this what you are telling me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Please do reach your point. Insofar as the Lord's ancestors were human I am comfortable saying they were sinners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Please do reach your point. Insofar as the Lord's ancestors were human I am comfortable saying they were sinners. It is written in 1 John 3:8 ‘He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.’ Now if Mary is a sinner and all his grand great great great grandparents too. Are you now saying the mother and grandparents of your God are all of the devil? Edited February 17, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Do you consider this to be exegesis? You are playing word games not reading scripture. This is not how you form correct doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Do you consider this to be exegesis? You are playing word games not reading scripture. This is not how you form correct doctrine. I am simply following your thoughts regarding your mother of God doctrine. So, is that what you are telling us? (since you are comfortable having a God who's mother and grandparents are all sinners?). Edited February 17, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 This is what a true witness said regarding Jesus Christ which is totally different from yours. It is written in Heb 6:16-7:3 Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem " means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. ---------------------- Now, Do your Christ like Melchizedek without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, and a priest forever?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am telling you in plain and common English that all humans have sinned, save only Christ Himself. But you will not take that verse you just quoted and twist it like some obscene pretzel into whatever bizarre personal innovation you've come up with. Speak plainly and say whatever you're working towards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 This is what a true witness said regarding Jesus Christ which is totally different from yours. It is written in Heb 6:16-7:3 Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem " means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. ---------------------- Now, Do your Christ like Melchizedek without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, and a priest forever?. Everyone thinks Melchizedek is a type of Christ--it's the standard reading. Still Blessed Mary is repeatedly referred to in scripture as His mother. And if He is God, she's unavoidably the Mother of God (this is not some peculiarity of Catholic doctrine, this is mere Christianity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 And the likeness Melchizedek and Jesus share is not in supposed parentlessness, but in both being holders of the priesthood despite not being kohens--this is such a basic part of how this text is read that I forgot to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am telling you in plain and common English that all humans have sinned, save only Christ Himself. But you will not take that verse you just quoted and twist it like some obscene pretzel into whatever bizarre personal innovation you've come up with. Speak plainly and say whatever you're working towards. I think you are not listening to yourself. If what you are saying regarding ‘all have sinned’ doctrine is true and if you are correct regarding Mary as a sinner, it will end up Jesus’ mother and grandparents are all of the devil because sinners are under the devil’s power. I think you want to stop at the middle of your argument thus; you are now blaming me for twisting and not listening to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Hebrews is addressed to first century Jews. Their religion was still the Judaism of the Old Testament, not Rabbinic Judaism, they would have had many questions about how Jesus could function as a priest while not being of male line priestly descent. I think you are not listening to yourself. If what you are saying regarding ‘all have sinned’ doctrine is true and if you are correct regarding Mary as a sinner, it will end up Jesus’ mother and grandparents are all of the devil because sinners are under the devil’s power. I think you want to stop at the middle of your argument thus; you are now blaming me for twisting and not listening to you. And I'm telling you that for about four different reasons that's not a reasonable way to read that verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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