Mass--my First In Five Years (other Than Funerals, Baptisms, And Weddi

[Evangetholic]

I accompanied my grandmother to Mass today (she and my New Age aunt are the last Catholics in my family). The liturgy was beautiful, almost as well done as the Episcopal church my immediate family attends (the prayers are different than what I remember from childhood). I always get teary eyed in churches that won't allow me communion.

 

Some concerns:

 

1. The homily was not a Christian sermon on doctrine or right-living, it was a tangential ramble about getting old. Did not even say the word "God" or reference the readings.

2. One of the women who was giving people communion is a known and public sinner who lives in concubinage with her cousin's husband (Lord love a small town).

3. I was the only peron under thirty and over ten in the building--and I have not been Catholic since my mother took us out of the Catholic Church in response to the clergy sex-abuse scandal.

4. Church normally feels like family, especially small churches, this church is in a small town in the South and has very few active members. My grandmother goes every week, but no one spoke to her afterwards (or anyone else for that matter). No fellowship, community building, etc. At the end of the Mass everyone just got into their cars and went away.

 

[Basilisa Marie]

I accompanied my grandmother to Mass today (she and my New Age aunt are the last Catholics in my family). The liturgy was beautiful, almost as well done as the Episcopal church my immediate family attends (the prayers are different than what I remember from childhood). I always get teary eyed in churches that won't allow me communion.

 

Some concerns:

 

1. The homily was not a Christian sermon on doctrine or right-living, it was a tangential ramble about getting old. Did not even say the word "God" or reference the readings.

2. One of the women who was giving people communion is a known and public sinner who lives in concubinage with her cousin's husband (Lord love a small town).

3. I was the only peron under thirty and over ten in the building--and I have not been Catholic since my mother took us out of the Catholic Church in response to the clergy sex-abuse scandal.

4. Church normally feels like family, especially small churches, this church is in a small town in the South and has very few active members. My grandmother goes every week, but no one spoke to her afterwards (or anyone else for that matter). No fellowship, community building, etc. At the end of the Mass everyone just got into their cars and went away.

 

Okay, this might come off a little harsh, but please know I don't mean to be mean.

 

1. While the homily IS supposed to reference the readings in some way, it doesn't always do that.  Bad homilies happen.  Getting old is a pretty important part of Christian life, and dealing with it appropriately is important.  Maybe it was directed toward someone else. 

 

2. It's not your job to be focused on judging everyone else as they go up for communion. It's your job to pray.  

 

3. Maybe because you were the only one under thirty, the homily wasn't directed toward you - maybe it's a parish with an older community.  Maybe that's the mass all the old people go to.  

 

4. For Catholics, the mass isn't chiefly about feeling happy with your neighbors and being a social hour (though it IS important to develop community!).  The Mass is participating in Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, learning from the word and experiencing an intimate encounter with God himself in the Eucharist.  It's a whole different focus than a lot of protestant churches. :)  

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that it's not about you.   :)  It's a whole different way of looking at worship, and that might be why you have the concerns that you do.  

[Evangetholic]

Empress Marie, I do not think you could be harsh or mean if you tried. I have read your posts, you sound like Jesus.

 

1. Point taken.

2. I disagree. She's exercising public ministry and her sins are not secret she lives in a house and maintains a sexual relationship with a man who is married to her mother's brother's daughter. The Bible is clear about such.

3. There's only one Mass. But point taken again.

4. No Christian community comes together primarily to interact with each other (or at least this should be the case). But "community" is not some hippy dream, it is one of the proofs that the Lord dwells among us.

[Nihil Obstat]

We have been trying to get the house in order for decades. This is nothing unique. Next time try the traditional Mass. ;)

[Basilisa Marie]

Empress Marie, I do not think you could be harsh or mean if you tried. I have read your posts, you sound like Jesus.

 

1. Point taken.

2. I disagree. She's exercising public ministry and her sins are not secret she lives in a house and maintains a sexual relationship with a man who is married to her mother's brother's daughter. The Bible is clear about such.

3. There's only one Mass. But point taken again.

4. No Christian community comes together primarily to interact with each other (or at least this should be the case). But "community" is not some hippy dream, it is one of the proofs that the Lord dwells among us.

 

I assure you, that's nothing to do with me, just the trickery associated with having a Jesus face next to everything you post. :) Plus you probably haven't seen my posts in the Debate Table. But thank you very much for your kind words. 

2. Well, what I mean is that she's probably a huge sinner, I'm not doubting that.  And she shouldn't be doing that if she is living in a state of mortal sin.  But we also have an obligation to not gossip and to treat people charitably.  It seems to me that the problem is between her, her family, and her priest.  They're the only ones who can do something about it, so in the meantime the rest of us have to be charitable.  

3. Maybe the parish down the street has cooler Life Teen. Or should start up a cool Life Teen.  :evil:

4. TRUE, and this is something that I'll freely admit Catholics are really weak on, and Protestants totally have covered.  We should be collectively working on that.  :) 

[Lil Red]

May I share with you something that I just read? (literally just read it - I'm doing reading for an upcoming Lenten group)

 

"God alone is holy. Yet God has willed to share his very life with us. Through the grace of the sacraments and by the exercise of Christian virtue, we gradually come to share in the holiness of God. We become like him by living the Christian life.

 

"The Church is holy because the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church. Jesus promised he would send the Holy Spirit to remain with us always, and we believe in his promise. At the same time we know that the Church includes people with many rough edges, sinners as well as saints. The Church, by her very nature, embraces sinners and calls them to conversion. Because the Church is a "pilgrim people" and not a "society of the perfect," we suffer the imperfections of our brothers and sisters and of ourselves. Yet we persevere, learning to bear with one another in love. All of us are somewhere along the way to greater holiness."

 

There is more, but it just was funny that I just read this, and then came on phatmass and saw your post. I guess what struck me is the bolded part above - that yes, there are people within the Church that are deeply imperfect - obviously including priests, bishops, cardinals - and yes, we do suffer them and their actions. Every parish and the people that attend are growing in holiness together and individually - and part of our "job" is to do the best that we can, individually and together. I get so wrapped up sometimes in the actions of others (at Mass - and yes, including the priest) that sometimes I forget that at Mass, my "job" is to pray, at that moment - not to judge, not to condemn, not to figuratively "point" at others or everything going wrong with Mass.

 

also: i hope this doesn't sound harsh (it's truly not meant to be), but if you went to the priest and told him your concerns, and said, "BTW, I'm not Catholic anymore" - how do you think that would go over?

We have been trying to get the house in order for decades. This is nothing unique. Next time try the traditional Mass. ;)

 

how is any part of this helpful?

[Evangetholic]

Lil Red, I love your response to this. It illuminates (unintendedly?) the deep differences and similiarities between Catholic and (most) Evangelical Ecclesiology (it does too exist :P ). I think charity, community, and holiness of life are the necessary (by which I mean unavoidable and supernatural) results of having been converted to Christ.  The church is not by any means a "society of the perfect," but it ought not be a place of alienation and living like demons either--I see nowhere in the Bible for this super spiritualized, loyalist view of the local church where we "suffer" one another and sit under the authority of people who have no Biblical right to exercise it.

 

I'll offer the case of the lady who lives in open sin with another woman's husband who was up front with the priest today. There is at least one major problems with this (possibly two or three).

 

1 Corinthian 5:1-2

 

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

 

This does not sound like patient and calm sufferance of sin by professing Christians (non-Christians are another matter, their problem isn't any particular sin, but sin as such).

 

As for the issue of me not being Catholic, I am a Christian and I believe the Roman Catholic Church to be Christian as well (not to mention my Catholic Baptism and Confirmation--the only two I have ever had and will ever have). Love of God and of Christians makes the goings on in your church and all others my business--it is a matter of Jesus's good name.

 

Edited February 10, 2013 by Evangetholic

[Evangetholic]

Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

 

This connects the moral life to Jesus's (the Word Made Flesh they taught me during my Catholic booyhood [John 1]) good name. It's also one of whole series of verses that outline a woman's (as opposed to a man) role in Christianity, which would seem to forbid most kinds of mixed sex ministry to women, but I'm offering this for general instruction about how our behavior impacts Christ's perception in the world (a damned and dying world in need of Him).

and i referenced those verses from 1 Corinthians wrong. It's 5:1-5, not 5:1-2.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Evangetholic

[Nihil Obstat]

how is any part of this helpful?

What is wrong with making conversation? Not everything I write is going to be a tour de force.

[vee]

I accompanied my grandmother to Mass today (she and my New Age aunt are the last Catholics in my family). The liturgy was beautiful, almost as well done as the Episcopal church my immediate family attends (the prayers are different than what I remember from childhood). I always get teary eyed in churches that won't allow me communion.

 

 

Sing, my tongue, the Saviour's glory, of His Flesh, the mystery sing; of the Blood, all price exceeding, shed by our Immortal King, destined, for the world's redemption, from a noble Womb to spring.
Of a pure and spotless Virgin born for us on earth below, He, as Man, with man conversing, stayed, the seeds of truth to sow; then He closed in solemn order wond'rously His Life of woe.
On the night of that Last Supper, seated with His chosen band, He, the Paschal Victim eating, first fulfils the Law's command; then as Food to His Apostles gives Himself with His own Hand.
Word-made-Flesh, the bread of nature by His Word to Flesh He turns; wine into His Blood He changes; what though sense no change discerns? Only be the heart in earnest, faith her lesson quickly learns.
Down in adoration falling, This great Sacrament we hail, O'er ancient forms of worship Newer rites of grace prevail; Faith will tell us Christ is present, When our human senses fail.
To the Everlasting Father, And the Son who made us free And the Spirit, God proceeding From them Each eternally, Be salvation, honour, blessing, Might and endless majesty. Amen. Alleluia.

[Evangetholic]

Sing, my tongue, the Saviour's glory, of His Flesh, the mystery sing; of the Blood, all price exceeding, shed by our Immortal King, destined, for the world's redemption, from a noble Womb to spring.
Of a pure and spotless Virgin born for us on earth below, He, as Man, with man conversing, stayed, the seeds of truth to sow; then He closed in solemn order wond'rously His Life of woe.
On the night of that Last Supper, seated with His chosen band, He, the Paschal Victim eating, first fulfils the Law's command; then as Food to His Apostles gives Himself with His own Hand.
Word-made-Flesh, the bread of nature by His Word to Flesh He turns; wine into His Blood He changes; what though sense no change discerns? Only be the heart in earnest, faith her lesson quickly learns.
Down in adoration falling, This great Sacrament we hail, O'er ancient forms of worship Newer rites of grace prevail; Faith will tell us Christ is present, When our human senses fail.
To the Everlasting Father, And the Son who made us free And the Spirit, God proceeding From them Each eternally, Be salvation, honour, blessing, Might and endless majesty. Amen. Alleluia.

 

Amen. Amen. Amen.

[Apotheoun]

Okay, this might come off a little harsh, but please know I don't mean to be mean.

 

. . . 

 

2. It's not your job to be focused on judging everyone else as they go up for communion. It's your job to pray.  

You are correct, parishioners should not have to worry about things like this in an ideal world, or even in a world where the pastors of the Church possess common sense.  After all, it should be the job of the priest to avoid scandal, but many Catholic parishes are ineptly run in these sad times.

 

Here is an example of what I am talking about:

 

On the day my mother - a recent convert to Byzantine Catholicism - died, she asked for me to arrange her final reception of holy communion, and sadly I could not get the Byzantine Catholic priest to come and give her communion because his parish is more than 3 hours away from the hospital, and so I had to ask that the Roman Catholic hospital ministry to have someone bring her holy communion.  The woman who arrived to give my mother her viaticum put my mother and my family through a horrendous experience.  I will begin by saying that the woman arrived inappropriately dressed for someone charged with carrying the sacred body of Jesus Christ, and by this I mean she was basically wearing a see through shirt (thankfully she was also wearing a black lace bra).  After coming into the room, she proceeded to spout anti-patriarchal comments about how evil the Church is for not ordaining women, and how the Church's hierarchy oppresses women and has brought about the deaths of uncounted women through its ban on abortion.  It got to wear my mother, who - because she had advanced emphysema - had difficulty speaking, went out of her way to begin asking me in a low breathy voice to tell the woman to "just leave!"  I refused to do that, because I knew this would be my mother's last chance to receive holy communion prior to her death, and so I finally interrupted the woman in order to remind her that she had been asked to come into the room in order to distribute holy communion.  She was visibly upset by the fact that I interrupted her diatribe against the pope and the hierarchy in general, but then proceeded to ask who wanted communion (n.b., only my mother and I received that morning), she then proceeded to give communion without a word of prayer or any sign that what we were doing was a sacred act.  Moreover, even after I told her that my mother could not consume an entire host, she still tried - no doubt because she did not listen to a word I was saying, that is, unless I raised my voice in an aggressive manner - to give my mother a complete host, but I was able to prevent her from doing so and in the end had to take communion twice.  She - at my instruction - gave my mother a small piece (about a quarter of the host) and I had to consumed the rest. Now as I already indicated, the woman did all this without a word of prayer or any indication that what we were doing was a pious act of love and devotion to Christ.  Worst of all, once she had given us holy communion she resumed her attack on the Church, at which point I again interrupted her, and told her "THANK YOU . . . I am so grateful that you brought the precious body of our Lord and Savior to my mother in her last hours."  At that point the woman asked, "Do you want me to leave?"  And I said, "Yes, thank you so much for your help."  Now taking into account what happened to my mother on that morning, you would think that the parish would be interested to know about my families experience, but when I contacted them and told them what occurred, I was made to feel as if I had somehow done something wrong.  My mother's finally reception of holy communion was made into something that was visibly uncomfortable for her, and no one can change that or give my mother another chance to receive the Lord's body in a more devout manner.  She is dead, and that final sacred moment was turned into something it should not have been, and I will have to live with that fact for the rest of my life.  I suppose it would have been better for me to simply ignore the scandal that this woman caused to my family, but in good conscience I could not.

[Lil Red]

What is wrong with making conversation? Not everything I write is going to be a tour de force.

 

I wasn't asking your post to be a "tour de force" ( :hehe: ). but suggesting that everything will be fixed by attending an Extraordinary Form Mass is really not helpful at all. Those masses/communities/priests have their own set of problems.

[Nihil Obstat]

I wasn't asking your post to be a "tour de force" ( :hehe: ). but suggesting that everything will be fixed by attending an Extraordinary Form Mass is really not helpful at all. Those masses/communities/priests have their own set of problems.

Everything was fixed for me by making the switch. :bounce: I believe I found for myself more grace in the ~2 years I have been attending the Traditional Mass exclusively, than in the previous 19 years of my life.

[Lil Red]

Everything was fixed for me by making the switch. :bounce: I believe I found for myself more grace in the ~2 years I have been attending the Traditional Mass exclusively, than in the previous 19 years of my life.

 

bully for you. no community is perfect though, and acting like everything will be fixed just by switching, is turning a blind eye to the problems that develop in any community.