IcePrincessKRS Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." agape, eros, philia, or storge? Also beneficial reading material: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-does-the-church-define-love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Agape had an entire history before making it into the New Testament. OUR Tradition, Christian Tradition is as much mine as anyone else's, imo invaldily, reads agape in ways that "make a great pretense of religion, but deny its power" according 2 Timothy 3:5. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 :popcorn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I've misquoted scripture I do NOT mean to suggest that verse from 2 Timothy is about usages of Agape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/02/why-dont-priests-follow-rubrics-fr-z-cheerfully-rants/ "The rubrics of the older Mass are a powerful leash indeed. When a priest obeys the rubrics of the older form of Mass, he is kept under tight control. He cannot impose too much of himself on the Mass and on the congregation. On top of that, the mania of turning altars around – in no way asked for or required by the Council – poured gasoline on already fired up priestly pride." I want to know your thoughts. +JMJ Sorry for derailing your thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) Agape had an entire history before making it into the New Testament. OUR Tradition, Christian Tradition is as much mine as anyone else's, imo invaldily, reads agape in ways that "make a great pretense of religion, but deny its power" according 2 Timothy 3:5. :) And the point about the extra-biblical usage of the word agape is that it was applied to what husbands felt for their wives, parents for their children, etc. Paul did not invent the word, nor do I think the precision of usages Christianity has come up with necessarily relate back to 1st century intent, rather I think it was a capitulation to the fact that even though we are to be dead men, and to be supernaturally good, only vehicles for Christ to live his life in/through us--we are still in the flesh. Still bound and determined to be our haateful little chimpanzee selves even though we claim to have put on Christ. Much easier to spiritualize a perfectly good word than to get a wicked man to act like Jesus. Edited February 11, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) And the point about the extra-biblical usage of the word agape is that it was applied to what husbands felt for their wives, parents for their children, etc. Paul did not invent the word, nor do I think the precision of usages Christianity has come up with necessarily relate back to 1st century intent, rather I think it was a capitulation to the fact that even though we are to be dead men, and to be supernaturally good, only vehicles for Christ to live his life in/through us--we are still in the flesh. Still bound and determined to be our haateful little chimpanzee selves even though we claim to have put on Christ. Much easier to spiritualize a perfectly good word than to get a wicked man to act like Jesus. No, no, no. You didn't even read the articles I quoted or linked did you? [A]ny strong affection, closeness, or devotion to things or persons. The Greeks distinguished four types of love: storge, philia, eros, and agape. Storge, familial love, is a word for the bond that exists between one who loves and persons, animals, and the things that surround him. It is compatible with quite a bit of taken-for-grantedness or even of hatred at times. Philia pertains to friends, freely chosen because of mutual compatibility and common values. Eros is passion, not only of a sexual nature, but also of an aesthetic or spiritual nature, for what is conceived of as supremely beautiful and desirable. Agapic love is manifested when one person has much to give to another more needy. It is generous self-donation without concern for reward. Such distinctions become especially important in discernments about marriage, because the strength of eros love may blind one to the absence of ther types of love needed to experience a good Christian bond that, with God’s grace, can endure "till death do us part." http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-does-the-church-define-love Edited February 11, 2013 by IcePrincessKRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz32pSxP6gM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) No, no, no. You didn't even read the articles I quoted or linked did you? [A]ny strong affection, closeness, or devotion to things or persons. The Greeks distinguished four types of love: storge, philia, eros, and agape. Storge, familial love, is a word for the bond that exists between one who loves and persons, animals, and the things that surround him. It is compatible with quite a bit of taken-for-grantedness or even of hatred at times. Philia pertains to friends, freely chosen because of mutual compatibility and common values. Eros is passion, not only of a sexual nature, but also of an aesthetic or spiritual nature, for what is conceived of as supremely beautiful and desirable. Agapic love is manifested when one person has much to give to another more needy. It is generous self-donation without concern for reward. Such distinctions become especially important in discernments about marriage, because the strength of eros love may blind one to the absence of ther types of love needed to experience a good Christian bond that, with God’s grace, can endure "till death do us part." http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-does-the-church-define-love No I didn't read your articles. I'm telling you that the word agape in particular has been spiritualized to Hades when that wasn't a needful thing. I'm telling you that none of these words include the potential for abusive speech. I am coming very close to telling you that you and the other Christian women here who are criticisng this priest are violating more than the reasonable understanding of what the inclusive English word "love" mean, but you are also sewing dissension and confusion in your church by not abiding the biblical injunction that you learn in silence and submission (which seems to include not pettily picking apart presbyters). I do not mean for this to sound as harsh as it probably does, but I do not know how else to say it. Edited February 11, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) No I didn't read your articles. I'm telling you that the word agape in particular has been spiritualized to Hades when that wasn't a needful thing. I'm telling you that none of these words include the potential for abusive speech. I am coming very close to telling you that you and the other Christian women here who are criticisng this priest are violating more than the reasonable understanding of what the inclusive English word "love" mean, but you are also sewing dissension and confusion in your church by not abiding the biblical injunction that you learn in silence and submission (which seems to include not pettily picking apart presbyters). I do not mean for this to sound as harsh as it probably does, but I do not know how else to say it. You are defining words wrong. Agape doesn't mean what you say it means. It never has. And I'm done talking to you in this thread. Peace, bro. :like: Edited February 11, 2013 by IcePrincessKRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 After 4-something pages, the point has been defended that Fr. Z is able to give his opinions in such form.... so the the next contention point to be resolved is Circle churches VS. Rectangle churches.........and GO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 IcePrincessKRS Are you objecting factually to the idea that agape was used to describe the kinds of love I listed? Would you like to see an example of these usages, or (and it's understandable if you feel this way, many Christians do) are you saying that how it was used outside of the Bible has no relevance to what it means in the Bible (please answer this--and please do not think I'm being purposefully uncharitable)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Any Triangle Church people here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 What's that? Oh humor. I tend to not get things, what with my lack of learning and all. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 What a fun thread... Anyhow, Nihil, that depends on what your definition of private Mass means canonically. Do you mean the canon definition of celebrating it alone by oneself, or the definition of celebrating it with a select congregation (such as the priest's family members)? Either way, wouldn't broadcasting it on the internet for anyone to view, invalidate the nature of it being "private", because the priest is no longer alone, nor is his select congregation the only ones "present"? Or would that mean that the internet population watching is that select congregation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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