If There Is No God...

[Era Might]

Ok but none of that really goes to what I said. I am not saying you're saying anything, I am not saying atheism can just be dismissed. I am not arguing here that God exist. I am trying to play devils advocate, pretending God doesn't exist, and the effects the would have on good and evil. I am saying there is no proof that objective right and wrong exist. Using arguments that are similar to those used for God aren't good enough. Telling me what Christians do and believe doesn't prove to me objective good and evil exist. It just tells me the opinions and actions of a people who believe in an imagery being if no God actually exist.

 

When you say "objective good and evil" what is your definition of good and evil?

[KnightofChrist]

When you say "objective good and evil" what is your definition of good and evil?

By objective I mean existing outside and not dependant on the subjective thoughts and imaginations of men. But for the sake of this devils advocate argument I don't believe in good and evil in any real sense, it would be subjective imagination, applying imaginary concepts and constructs that don't actually exist to actions, events or thoughts which would be amoral in reality.

[Era Might]

By objective I mean existing outside and not dependant on the subjective thoughts and imaginations of men. But for the sake of this devils advocate argument I don't believe in good and evil in any real sense, it would be subjective imagination, applying imaginary concepts and constructs that don't actually exist to actions, events or thoughts which would be amoral in reality.

 

I understand what you mean by objective, but what do you mean by "good" and "evil"...can you define those.

[Anomaly]

Assuming there is a God, does not make Truth of good or evil objective.  It is only saying the in context of this God, the Truth can be measured objectively to this God's subjective values. 

[Kia ora]

Beyond existence? Interesting, never heard that before.

 

paul tillich has something interesting to say about that, he says that god does not exist, because existence is too 'mundane', things and creatures exist, but god does not exist like them, rather he is existence itself. to even say that god exists is to deny him.

[4588686]

We're all atheists here.  I'm just more open about it. 

[Guest]

Could never be an atheist. Had to much stuff happen. Used a ouija board with 2 close friends and 1 other person I did not know. With two of them being someone who was really into it and believed in calling spirits. I went into it not wanting to believe and BARELY touched the thing when it moved to letters. So it was not me pushing this thing to letters. It answered questions that only I would know and the other 3 did not know the anwers too. It left me shocked and scared after this happened. Later when searching for God and who He was I woke up from a dream saying the words Jeff is gonna die. Remember this as if it just happened. Within the week my bestfriends brother and my friend Jeff was killed in a drunk driving accident and he was supposed to pick me up that day. I don't know if this was God telling me this was gonna happen or the occult or what. I still had not come back to my faith in Christ. Right around coming back to my faith in Christ I expercienced seeing lights. I won't go into detail about this but I could. Again I remember this as if it happened yesterday. I will never forget the things that happened. I will remember them for the rest of my life. There are more but those are the main. My uncle who I know is a honest man took part in a seance (sp) in his basement and experienced demonic activty firsthand. He's knows this happened it was not made up in his mind. Its reality. Without a doubt a spirtual realm exist. There is occult and evil and there is good and love. Now mabey atheist will be able to explain this 'spirtual realm" with science one day. I don't think so and am 100 percent its of supernatural origin and of God. Read proof of heaven by neurosurgeon Eben Alexander. This is a very smart man who had a detailed experience nde. He also gets into things about the science of conciousness and physical reality. The book is great and will mail my copy to any1 that wants it. Anyhow with my experinces I'm convinced of a spirtual realm. I know what I experienced. If there is a spirtual realm and no God this would make no sense. Peace.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Guest

[Guest]

Jim C who played Christ in the passion was 33 when he played the role (same as Jesus). His initals were J.C. He was told 6 months before knowing of the role he would play Jesus by a complete stranger in the street. He was struck by lighting on set. The cross was struck by lighting. The guy who did the music for the film said he went into not believing in an actual satan. He said he came out of without a doubt satan is real. He said music files and the computer would keeping being corrupted. He said the computer would constanly freeze on images of satan. I'm not doing the story justice because I don't remember it completly. Its a must read interview. Its amazing.

When you say were all athiest I don't know if your just being a smartass or you really believe that. You say your just open about it. Faith is a real thing. The Holy Spirit, Christ, Father (Holy Trinity) is a real thing. Faith is a gift and God will give it to anyone who really seeks it out with their whole heart. You are much smarter then I'll ever be hassan but don't be the fool who says there's no God in their heart AND THE FOOL who mocks other people who really do believe. If you thinkk every person who has faith or has experienced God or the spirtual realm is really just an atheist and not being "open" about it like yourself then I feel really sorry for ya. Cause you're wrong. Then again mabey you're just joking too. Prayers and Godbless.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Guest

[Socrates]

The default position must be ascribing everything that can be observed to natural causes.  Attempting to assert a supernatural cause requires the burden of proof to be on the theist.  I'm not saying that one can't show it reasonable to believe in God, but I am saying you can't fault someone for assuming God doesn't exist based on what a human being can reasonable conclude from the world around us.

 

What exactly do you mean by "natural causes"?  Generally, "nature" in the sense you use it, refers to the observable physical universe, and the physical laws governing it.

 

Yet appealing to "nature" or "natural causes" does nothing to explain why this observable natural world and its laws exists - or why there is something rather than nothing.

 

Many of the greatest minds through history have concluded that the universe must have been created or brought into existence by an ultimate Being (or God) who is Pure Act, dependent on nothing else for existence (unlike observable existing things), and most human beings through history have believed in some kind of God or Creator to explain the existence of observable things.  

 

The alternative is to believe that physical things are somehow the cause of their own being, or that the physical universe somehow pooped itself into existence.

 

I realize atheists have their own counter-arguments, but to treat atheism as the default philosophy which must be presumed to be true is silly.

[Socrates]

God exists...does he have his being in God?

 

Yes.  God's existence IS his nature - God is the source of all being, dependent on no other things or conditions for His existence - the "I Am Who Am" revealed to Abraham.  St. Thomas describes Him philosophically as Pure Act (look it up for more explanation).  God is not some thing which subsequently created everything else, but the source of existence itself.

[stevil]

if, as the atheist materialist claims, the mind and ideas are nothing more than purely physical electro-chemical activity in the brain, then such activity is determined by purely physical causes.  If this is true, both free will and intellect are an illusion, and meaningless.  Then my Christian faith is is nothing more than purely physical activity with purely physical causes - as is the atheism of the atheist.  It is pointless then to argue one pattern of electro-chemical activity against another.
 
 
This is not, strictly speaking, a proof for the existence of God, but a demonstration of how atheistic materialism, if followed to its logical conclusion, undermines all human knowledge - including atheistic ideas.

There are two aspects to this.
Physical and conceptual.

Sometimes conceptual describes physical, sometimes it does not.
The concept of a human body encapsulates all the physical that underlies this. That which we call a human body is a collection of organs, bones, blood, etc. Underlying that are the compounds, the DNA codes, the chemical and electrical activities. Underlying this are the atoms, the matter, the energy.

The concept of gods is conceptual only, similar to the concept of a circle or a number. Unless of course you can point to an underlying physical aspect of gods, maybe this is referred to as metaphysical? So if we ask, what is god made of? You wouldn't state something physical such as atoms, maybe you could point to something that is also conceptual only such as love.

With regards to the human "self", this is conceptual. The "me" whom thinks I am making decisions and living a chosen life rather than merely being a collection of atoms obeying the forces of nature. This "me" in the atheistic worldview, I think must only be a conscious observer (other atheists may disagree). But I don't think we have magical (non physical) abilities to cause atoms or electrons to move in a way that is contrary to the forces of nature. But I observe and am under the illusion of free will and the illusion of being a conceptual "self". Conceptually I can view images and ideas (merely represented by atoms and electric forces) and I can conceptually interpret those ideas. I can derive meanings/facts or conclusions, I can be correct or incorrect in my conclusions. If other findings prove to me that I am incorrect then I am open to changing my conclusions. But all this is conceptual, with a very complex underlying physical system.

An analogy could be made with regards to DNA coding. All this is, is atoms in particular configurations, but ultimately it determines how a complex "life" organism is built, and is replicated and evolves over time. Because of the machine that knows how to interpret DNA coding, this means that DNA coding has a meaning above just being a physical collection/configuration of atoms.

It really is fascinating how reality works. You can presuppose a ghost in the machine (a spirit, souls etc) but I don't think that is necessary. The atheistic worldview holds onto a very strong, solid and logical foundation.