An Applebee's Diner Refused To Leave A Tip For Religious Reasons

[Papist]

Why would Applebee's care if a waiter is being treated properly or not?  Theoretically, sure.  They get a higher quality of waitstaff which allows them to produce a better product which increases their profits.  And that sounds great.  Theoretically.  But realistically.  In an economic environment like this one, where there is substantial unemployment which is only more substantial for individuals without a college degree, individuals who will likely have to work at a place like Applebee's for most of their working lives, why would Applebee's give two poos?  What is somebody one a razor thin budget in a high unemployment economy going to do?  Quit on the assumption that they can find something better to do before rent is due?

 

 

I don't know what is going to happen to this generation because in much of the country there is nothing to do.  I am lucky that I have a decent resume.  I oversaw a $10,000 budget on an international grant project.  From that I happened to be able to get an entry level job with the Obama campaign.  And from that managed to get a decent position with responsibilities and leadership blah blah blah.  I have not been paid well with anything that I've done out of college.  And that's fine with me because I've gotten to do activities that I've found meaningful (not counting my second job in retail).  But I don't know anybody else who is doing anything close to what they wanted to do.  They either are stuck, after doing well at UNC which they got to go to because they did well in high school, doing a minimum wage dead end job with no opportunities for leadership experience to put on their resume or going into consulting.  That pays very well but since they are well educated they understand that what they are doing is perpetuating a system that makes the rich much richer and leaves the poor behind (at best).  That's about it as far as I can see.  Consulting.  UNC has decent academic ranking so major firms recruit here.  Most of their spots are reserved for the Ivy League schools.  The the top-tier non Ivy League schools like UVA, UNC, Duke (Duke probably falls closer to the Ivy status though) and then as far as I know nothing.  I don't know who is recruiting at schools like ECU or UNCG.  From what I've heard it's mostly jobs that you really don't need a college degree to get into but if you do well and have a degree then you can move up at an accelerated pace.  Not a good choice to make.  And, the most important part, that's making life even worse for the working poor and people who would traditionally comprise that class since they are not stuck having to compete with people who have a four year degree against their high school degree.  

 

b/c the employer caring for its employees is the decent thing to do. No one deserves to be treated like poo regardless of the poo job he is doing. If the employer treats his workers with the proper dignity and respect, it is likely that the worker will produce better and stay with the company longer.  There is a reason why this country has a turnover problem, and this is one of them. Workers are people first, then doctors, professors, janitors, etc.

[4588686]

b/c the employer caring for its employees is the decent thing to do. No one deserves to be treated like poo regardless of the poo job he is doing. If the employer treats his workers with the proper dignity and respect, it is likely that the worker will produce better and stay with the company longer.  There is a reason why this country has a turnover problem, and this is one of them. Workers are people first, then doctors, professors, janitors, etc.

 

 

Capitalism has never been powered by any concern about doing the decent thing in the way the system treats the powerless.  

[Basilisa Marie]

Yea, minus the waiting a table and rolling silverware; what you described is common place for most people in retail. 

 

I don't envy the job that wait staff has, not something I would like to do. I just take issue with the fact that some wait staff (not all) seem to feel entitled to a certain tip level no matter the service they provide. 

 

Avg service gets %15 from me. Where did this %20 come from?

 

 

I was always taught 20% for dinner, 15% for lunch for standard good service, but I know I start on the higher end of tipping. 

 

Standard dinner tipping is anywhere from 15%-20%, and lunch is 10%-15% (because dinner is always more involved than lunch).  10% for dinner to me seems like "You brought me my food and drinks and didn't manage to spill it on me, with a scowl." 

[Papist]

Capitalism has never been powered by any concern about doing the decent thing in the way the system treats the powerless.  

 

I don't give a rats about any ISMs. All persons deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. 

[4588686]

I don't give a rats about any ISMs. All persons deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. 

 

That's not an 'ism' that's just the economic reality that we live in.  That is the free market.  It works by individual, rational actors seeking to maximize their outcomes.  That's the logic of our economic system.  And the historical record attests to the fact that in a free market individual do their best to maximize their gains, chiefly by using their economic power to ensnare less socially powerful actors into exploitative relationships.  

 

So if you want a capitalist system then fine.  You certainly seem to, given your posts here.  So accept that that is the economic system that you support and want to bolster.  Don't suddenly become bashful when the fundamental logic of that system, a logic that is acknowledged by everyone on the political spectrum from Noam Chomsky to Milton Friedman, is simply pointed out.  

[eagle_eye222001]

Yea, minus the waiting a table and rolling silverware; what you described is common place for most people in retail. 

 

I don't envy the job that wait staff has, not something I would like to do. I just take issue with the fact that some wait staff (not all) seem to feel entitled to a certain tip level no matter the service they provide. 

 

Avg service gets %15 from me. Where did this %20 come from?

 

Yes, there are servers who feel entitled... and I used to work with some.  They would do a junk job and then complain when they didn't get 20%.

 

All I can say is tip accordingly.  Don't reward bad behavior.

 

15% is reasonable for average proper service.  

[StMichael]

Let me correct this for you:

 

Capitalism Monopolies has have never been powered by any concern about doing the decent thing in the way the system treats the powerless.  

 

Capitalism paved the way for the so-called middle class. Henry Ford paid his workers a wage higher than all others so they could afford the cars they built, thus ensuring more cars were sold.

 

Capitalism, or the non-progressive word, Free Markets, reward those who do good and quickly punish those who do harm.

 

Glad I could help you today.

 

Capitalism has never been powered by any concern about doing the decent thing in the way the system treats the powerless.  

 

Edited February 5, 2013 by StMichael

[Anomaly]

That's not an 'ism' that's just the economic reality that we live in. That is the free market. It works by individual, rational actors seeking to maximize their outcomes. That's the logic of our economic system. And the historical record attests to the fact that in a free market individual do their best to maximize their gains, chiefly by using their economic power to ensnare less socially powerful actors into exploitative relationships.

So if you want a capitalist system then fine. You certainly seem to, given your posts here. So accept that that is the economic system that you support and want to bolster. Don't suddenly become bashful when the fundamental logic of that system, a logic that is acknowledged by everyone on the political spectrum from Noam Chomsky to Milton Friedman, is simply pointed out.

Capitalism works when there is self respect and mutual respect in the work. I've managed people for decades and its true that people whi give no respect generally get none. That goes for employees as well as owners and managers. Like i said in getting good service from waitstaff, the problem is often in your mirror.

[Papist]

That's not an 'ism' that's just the economic reality that we live in.  That is the free market.  It works by individual, rational actors seeking to maximize their outcomes.  That's the logic of our economic system.  And the historical record attests to the fact that in a free market individual do their best to maximize their gains, chiefly by using their economic power to ensnare less socially powerful actors into exploitative relationships.  

 

So if you want a capitalist system then fine.  You certainly seem to, given your posts here.  So accept that that is the economic system that you support and want to bolster.  Don't suddenly become bashful when the fundamental logic of that system, a logic that is acknowledged by everyone on the political spectrum from Noam Chomsky to Milton Friedman, is simply pointed out.  

 

What does any of your dribble have to do with people being treated with respect and dignity?  Every person deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. Don't you think?  If yes, should this be true in any economic system?

[Autumn Dusk]

Capitalism works when there is self respect and mutual respect in the work. I've managed people for decades and its true that people whi give no respect generally get none. That goes for employees as well as owners and managers. Like i said in getting good service from waitstaff, the problem is often in your mirror.

 

Exactly.

 

I've worked in food service where tips weren't in play because it was a mess hall.  You know what? The company made ways to reward the good workers and turnover was small.

 

I've worked in convenience stores where time was rewarded with gift certificates in addition to wages.  3 months was $25, 6 months $50 and then $100 a year in gift certificates to the store/gas station every year.  At 5 years a jacket in addition...and a few other prizes in between.  

 

I've worked in convience stores that didn't give a crud and the turnover rate was 2 months or less.

 

I worked in retail under a good manager, and made ok money, and as described above, in retail with a bad manager and had a horrible experience    I am young and somewhat talented and skilled.  My work  was praised (unfortunately by those who didn't pay my paycheck) but in the end I quit and was hired by a company that is more forward thinking and less abusive.

[4588686]

What does any of your dribble have to do with people being treated with respect and dignity?  Every person deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. Don't you think?  If yes, should this be true in any economic system?

 

I agree.  Unfortunately, the free market system is premised on behavior that is not in line with respect and dignity of competing actors being top priorities.  That's not leftist postulating.  Rational self-interest and maximizing utilities.  Those are things that you find in microeconomic theory for free market systems.  Not so much tightly reasoned mathematical models about how being a swell guy is important too even if it makes your business less competitive   That's the system you want.  Fine.  Then have the integrity to admit that you want a free market system and that you want that system understanding that it structures market behavior in ways that disciplines actors that pursue altruistic goals.  

Capitalism works when there is self respect and mutual respect in the work. I've managed people for decades and its true that people whi give no respect generally get none. That goes for employees as well as owners and managers. Like i said in getting good service from waitstaff, the problem is often in your mirror.

 

 

Really?  That's interesting.  So Walmart's internal labor policies are indicative of an organization that got to the top of the foodchain by treating its workers with respect and decency?  Plenty of people will try to behave decently in a market system.  And, all things being equal, they will always loose our to organizations like walmart.  

[Slappo]

FWIW just because I disagree with the tipping standards in the United States doesn't mean I stiff my wait staff... I typically tip between 15-18% and have tipped 20% on ocassion.

 

What I'm not sure of is tipping standards for call in & pick up orders to go. Someone took my order over the phone, handed it to the chef, they made the food and put it in a to go container, rang up my bill and swiped my credit card. I've only done it a couple times, but never knew what was considered appropriate. I'm definitely not tipping 15-20% when they aren't setting a table, wiping it up, filling my water, and checking on my food...

[Slappo]

You need to wait tables at a restaurant.......work evenings.....holidays....weekends.....take customer orders......stand on your feet for hours on end............clean bathrooms......sweep/mop the floor........roll silverware......greet customers.....sell them products.....resolve  customer conflict.......listen to the managers sermon on the customer god and the worker devil.......etc....and then deal with those customers that just use you......

----------------------------------

If you can't afford 20% on the dollar that you spend at the restaurant, then you can't afford to go out.

 

-----------------------

I know you think $45/hr is a massive wage.  You are right.  It is.  But it most restaurant scenarios, it is unsustainable.

 

To the first... I've done all of that minus the rolling silverware.

 

To the second: then make 20% gratuity mandatory on all orders. Or 10% gratuity automatically added into the bill and allow tipping beyond that based on level of service provided (10% mandatory for even crappity crap service, throw 5% on your table for decent service, and 10% on your table for amazing service).

 

To the third: $45/hr for a job that requires no formal training is massive wages no matter how you put it. I don't care what kind of crap a waiter has to put up with, because most people working customer service have a good amount of crap to deal with too, yet they don't make $45 hourly. They make $10-12 an hr. A lot of them have to give up evenings weekends and holidays too. Who do you think checks you out at your grocery store when you need to run in on thanksgiving because you forgot to buy butter? Who do you think closes up the store at 11pm? Who do you think works on saturdays and sundays while the average joe is on his day off? That same person will have customers yelling at him because the price wrang up wrong or he was too slow checking out the customers before this guy. Or there's the fast food staff who stand all day, take orders, get yelled at for forgetting the tomatoes, have to wipe tables, and are only making $8 an hr with no benefits. They also work nights weekends and holidays.

I'm not saying wait staff should make $8-12 an hour, but certainly not $45 as the standard.

[Anomaly]

 

Really?  That's interesting.  So Walmart's internal labor policies are indicative of an organization that got to the top of the foodchain by treating its workers with respect and decency?  Plenty of people will try to behave decently in a market system.  And, all things being equal, they will always loose our to organizations like walmart.  

 

 

 

WalMart Employee Benefits:

 

WalMart employee benefits including incentive/bonus plan, health insurance, profit sharing, 401(k), education, store discounts and other Walmart employment benefits. All Wal-Mart associates (full and part time) can become eligible for insurance benefits.
Wal-Mart Benefits

 

About Working for WalMart:

 

Wal-Mart is one of the largest private employers in the US, the largest employer in Mexico, and one of the largest in Canada.

WalMart employs more than 2.1 million associates worldwide, including more than 1.4 million in the United States. Most associates are full time associates (34-40 hours per week), but there are part time jobs available, as well.

WalMart's average, full-time hourly wage for Wal-Mart stores ranges from $10 - $12 hour

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah.  That is so awful.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I do 20% as a baseline.  as low as 15% if i had bad service.  If the waitress smiles at me a lot, she gets more. If the waiter smiles at me a lot, I punch him.