Immigration Reform

[zabbazooey]

Basilisa - me too. I thought my mom was soooo stupid when she tried to get me to take Spanish instead of French in middle school/high school. Oh mom what do you know, you've only been around twice as long as I have...

I tried taking a class in college but it was so similar to French that it messed me up and it was really hard to learn. My cousin is a Spanish teacher and tutor. Too bad we can't stand each others company lol.

Everything is bilingual preferred. I'm a barista and they even asked me during my interview if I spoke Spanish. And that's a minimum wage (+ tips) job.

[Autumn Dusk]

I appreciate her trying to make an honest living, I don't have the greatest job either but I work to make ends meet, but I am sorry, you should speak okay enough English to be wait staff at a restaurant. It takes proficient language skills to provide decent customer service, to properly take orders, and to take care of your tables. She could not because she didn't speak English. I am sure she would make a great waitress if she were at a restaurant where she could utilize her native language. But she wasn't, she was at waitress at a Chinese restaurant in Kansas. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but there are other jobs in the restaurant that you can do if you do not possess proficient language skills for the restaurant and country that you work in.

 

And that's cool that non-profits like that exist. Thank you for your hard work and dedication!

 

But that immigrant was most likely legal....which really has little bearing on illegal activities.

 

Most illegal immigrants will do anything to learn English  including pay cash to community colleges in the tune of $300-$400 to make sure they aren't suspected of being illegal.  We knew because they had no ID, no perminant address, etc.  The legal immigrants who were going on the goverment's dime were typically much more laze-faire and would scrupously produce ID when asked the simplest things....and often took 5-6 years to complete the 30 month program.

[Anomaly]

How about Mexico fixing their corrupt government and society.  No need, the population can leave and it's someone else's problem, leaving the wealthy and powerful free to do what they've been doing.

 

Just let them come to the US where the Politicians will use them as a pawn to take over even more personal wealth.  Of course, the Politicians get a great living and power out of it, while the "middle class" is paying the bill.  It'll work for a generation or two.

 

Ever notice that people migrate to get away from manipulation and control or to get free stuff?  How many people can the US taxpayer support who can't work because there are few jobs that people can contribute to the economy.  There isn't an endless pool of money that pays for all this.  Visit the GAO and see wherre the money comes from.  82% comes from payroll and personal income tax.   The uber wealthy and politicians aren't going to give up what they have because they don't have too and can't be forced to.

 

If you feel morally moved to help the plight of the poor and you live here in the US, then why don't you and your family move to a small studio apartment, give up the personal car, iPhone, cell bill, eating at Red Lobster, vacation, the expensive college education that won't get you a paying job, cable TV bill, pleasure travel for vacation, and send them the money.  Why force others who may not feel the same way so you can keep your iPhone?

[Winchester]

Mexico should legalize drugs.

[Nihil Obstat]

If you feel morally moved to help the plight of the poor and you live here in the US, then why don't you and your family move to a small studio apartment, give up the personal car, iPhone, cell bill, eating at Red Lobster, vacation, the expensive college education that won't get you a paying job, cable TV bill, pleasure travel for vacation, and send them the money.  Why force others who may not feel the same way so you can keep your iPhone?

Did you actually just use Red Lobster as an example of obscene luxury? :|

[Anomaly]

Did you actually just use Red Lobster as an example of obscene luxury? :|

 

It's a luxury for me.  I'm sure it's a luxury for immigrants and other poor as well. 

Since you support free and unhindered immigration, what are you going to do to help get food, housing, clothing, medical care, education.  Propose that I pay for it while you scoff at Red Lobster being a luxury?

[Era Might]

How about Mexico fixing their corrupt government and society.  No need, the population can leave and it's someone else's problem, leaving the wealthy and powerful free to do what they've been doing.

 

Just let them come to the US where the Politicians will use them as a pawn to take over even more personal wealth.  Of course, the Politicians get a great living and power out of it, while the "middle class" is paying the bill.  It'll work for a generation or two.

 

Ever notice that people migrate to get away from manipulation and control or to get free stuff?  How many people can the US taxpayer support who can't work because there are few jobs that people can contribute to the economy.  There isn't an endless pool of money that pays for all this.  Visit the GAO and see wherre the money comes from.  82% comes from payroll and personal income tax.   The uber wealthy and politicians aren't going to give up what they have because they don't have too and can't be forced to.

 

If you feel morally moved to help the plight of the poor and you live here in the US, then why don't you and your family move to a small studio apartment, give up the personal car, iPhone, cell bill, eating at Red Lobster, vacation, the expensive college education that won't get you a paying job, cable TV bill, pleasure travel for vacation, and send them the money.  Why force others who may not feel the same way so you can keep your iPhone?

 

If we can't find a way to build positively with 11 million immigrants, how would we have accommodated the adults we would have if there were not 50 million abortions?

[add]

i haven't read up on this stuff, so bear with me.

 

how does this proposal stack up against laws that are already on the books? if they don't enforce the laws that are already on the books regarding immigration laws, what good is making more laws going to do ?

 

you mean besides sway the election?

[Anomaly]

If we can't find a way to build positively with 11 million immigrants, how would we have accommodated the adults we would have if there were not 50 million abortions?

 

 

I guess at a point people would realize that the Government cannot do the job of feeding, clothing, housing, and providing health care for everyone if there aren't enough people in the economy to support the largess and will find that they are responsible to feed and clothe themselves and their children and would have had to face the hard decision to either not get themselves or others pregnant by abstaining or using contraception.  If the Government and others can't feed them, and they can't feed themselves, I guess they would starve.

 

Why can't the society in Mexico provide for them?  Why have children that you can't or won't provide for?  Why did God kick humanity out of Eden where we are required to work to live and eat?

 

Unhindered immigration only deals with a societal symptom, it does not address the fundamental cause of the problems in Mexico or other countries that have problems.  Why should the residents of Mexico (just using them as a convenience) revolt or rebel or change their society and government because it isn't working for them?  It's easier to abandon their home, their society, their family, their neighbors, their culture, thier Government and move to America, essentially as a second class person, because the rewards are easier. 

[Era Might]

I guess at a point people would realize that the Government cannot do the job of feeding, clothing, housing, and providing health care for everyone if there aren't enough people in the economy to support the largess and will find that they are responsible to feed and clothe themselves and their children and would have had to face the hard decision to either not get themselves or others pregnant by abstaining or using contraception.  If the Government and others can't feed them, and they can't feed themselves, I guess they would starve.

 

Why can't the society in Mexico provide for them?  Why have children that you can't or won't provide for?  Why did God kick humanity out of Eden where we are required to work to live and eat?

 

Unhindered immigration only deals with a societal symptom, it does not address the fundamental cause of the problems in Mexico or other countries that have problems.  Why should the residents of Mexico (just using them as a convenience) revolt or rebel or change their society and government because it isn't working for them?  It's easier to abandon their home, their society, their family, their neighbors, their culture, thier Government and move to America, essentially as a second class person, because the rewards are easier. 

 

I don't know who these leeching immigrants are you are referring to, but the illegal immigrants I know come here to work. I have a family member who has lived here illegally for more than 10 years. When she first came here she slept maybe 3 or 4 hours a night, worked herself crazy (I can't even work that hard, and wouldn't want to). She has a 10 year old son born here, a citizen of the country who speaks English, goes to school, goes to church, a very normal boy. She frequently sends money back home to help her family. Times are tough for her right now...work was a lot better when she got here. But if she is a problem in society, I don't have much interest in fixing it.

 

As far as people trying to change their home countries, that is a need, but people ARE trying to change their countries. It ain't easy. At the end of the day, people just want to work, feed their family, and stay alive...whether they do it here or there, they just want to do it. That doesn't mean there aren't activists and people doing they best they can where they are.

 

If it wasn't for people leaving their home, their society, their family, their neighbors, their culture, their Government and moving to America, there never would have been a Plymouth Plantation. Maybe if Europeans never immigrated here, we wouldn't have the problems we have now...but they did, and we do.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Era Might

[Nihil Obstat]

It's a luxury for me. I'm sure it's a luxury for immigrants and other poor as well.
Since you support free and unhindered immigration, what are you going to do to help get food, housing, clothing, medical care, education. Propose that I pay for it while you scoff at Red Lobster being a luxury?

I do not support welfare of any kind.

[4588686]

Did you actually just use Red Lobster as an example of obscene luxury? :|

For a lot of people Red Lobster is luxury. For most of the country, actually. If your net family income is 45,000 and you have 2 kids then eating a 60 dollar meal is a big deal.

[Anomaly]

I don't know who these leeching immigrants are you are referring to, but the illegal immigrants I know come here to work. I have a family member who has lived here illegally for more than 10 years. When she first came here she slept maybe 3 or 4 hours a night, worked herself crazy (I can't even work that hard, and wouldn't want to). She has a 10 year old son born here, a citizen of the country who speaks English, goes to school, goes to church, a very normal boy. She frequently sends money back home to help her family. Times are tough for her right now...work was a lot better when she got here. But if she is a problem in society, I don't have much interest in fixing it.

 

As far as people trying to change their home countries, that is a need, but people ARE trying to change their countries. It ain't easy. At the end of the day, people just want to work, feed their family, and stay alive...whether they do it here or there, they just want to do it. That doesn't mean there aren't activists and people doing they best they can where they are.

 

If it wasn't for people leaving their home, their society, their family, their neighbors, their culture, their Government and moving to America, there never would have been a Plymouth Plantation. Maybe if Europeans never immigrated here, we wouldn't have the problems we have now...but they did, and we do.

 

 

I do know lots of immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  My grandparents and my wife came here on boats.  I have family members that have been killed trying to leave their home country to come here.  My family has sponsered legal refugees as well as helped people sneak into this country (illegally).  I personally know multiple families that are refugees.  I've employed and worked FOR immigrants, both legal and illegal.  People are all different, have different attitudes, philosophys and behaviors.  I know legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, and citizens that milk the System as well as follow the system.  What's your point?

 

The reality is, the US economy, as big and wasteful and rich as it is, cannot just absorb millions of people and provide food, clothing, housing, education, and medical care for all of them unless they are able to be productive for themselves and others in the economic reality.  It's human nature to have a better appreciation and self worth to earn a living vs being dependent on charity.  

 

No society or economic system has worked where the Government provides for all welfare needs.  The immigration policy is centered not on just allowing these people to work, but also entitling them to all the welfare benefits if they can't work.  So how much of my Social Security that I've paid for, hoping to live off it when I'm old, should be given to people who move here because their country blows?  How much of my sacrifice and years of toil that the Government made me pay them for safe keeping so I wouldn't be destitute and a burden on society should be taken away from me and my family and given to millions of people who snuck accross the border just a few years or weeks ago?  Shouldn't I expect to receive the benefits and promises that were made to me by my Government when I paid my tax money and expect to afford a standard of living that is still below what it was while I was working for 50+ years?

 

Paying for the welfare largess that is expected to be provided for all citizens of the US requires the contribution, over time, but all it's citizens during their lifetime.  A huge influx of citizens from immigration affects the math, just as the glut of retiring baby boomers and longer life spans affects the math.  If the US economy wasn't in double digit unemployment, things may work out.  But that isn't reality so the Government is giving out more than it takes in.  It's giving out to a large glut of people who haven't been here to contribute in taxes, or can't even get a job to contribute.  Only 45% of the legal US population is employed, paying for 82% of the Government revenue while our deficit is 81% of our GDP, compared to Sweeden with 38% or Greece, 114%.  Do you see Sweden or Greece willing and able to add 5% (11 million in US) to their Citizenry and provide the same welfare benefits?

 

If you are personally willing to give up what you have, that's fine.  Contribute to a charity.  It's a different matter when you want our government to take from me to give to others when I haven't stolen, cheated, found, or was given.

[Era Might]

I do know lots of immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  My grandparents and my wife came here on boats.  I have family members that have been killed trying to leave their home country to come here.  My family has sponsered legal refugees as well as helped people sneak into this country (illegally).  I personally know multiple families that are refugees.  I've employed and worked FOR immigrants, both legal and illegal.  People are all different, have different attitudes, philosophys and behaviors.  I know legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, and citizens that milk the System as well as follow the system.  What's your point?

 

The reality is, the US economy, as big and wasteful and rich as it is, cannot just absorb millions of people and provide food, clothing, housing, education, and medical care for all of them unless they are able to be productive for themselves and others in the economic reality.  It's human nature to have a better appreciation and self worth to earn a living vs being dependent on charity.  

 

No society or economic system has worked where the Government provides for all welfare needs.  The immigration policy is centered not on just allowing these people to work, but also entitling them to all the welfare benefits if they can't work.  So how much of my Social Security that I've paid for, hoping to live off it when I'm old, should be given to people who move here because their country blows?  How much of my sacrifice and years of toil that the Government made me pay them for safe keeping so I wouldn't be destitute and a burden on society should be taken away from me and my family and given to millions of people who snuck accross the border just a few years or weeks ago?  Shouldn't I expect to receive the benefits and promises that were made to me by my Government when I paid my tax money and expect to afford a standard of living that is still below what it was while I was working for 50+ years?

 

Paying for the welfare largess that is expected to be provided for all citizens of the US requires the contribution, over time, but all it's citizens during their lifetime.  A huge influx of citizens from immigration affects the math, just as the glut of retiring baby boomers and longer life spans affects the math.  If the US economy wasn't in double digit unemployment, things may work out.  But that isn't reality so the Government is giving out more than it takes in.  It's giving out to a large glut of people who haven't been here to contribute in taxes, or can't even get a job to contribute.  Only 45% of the legal US population is employed, paying for 82% of the Government revenue while our deficit is 81% of our GDP, compared to Sweeden with 38% or Greece, 114%.  Do you see Sweden or Greece willing and able to add 5% (11 million in US) to their Citizenry and provide the same welfare benefits?

 

If you are personally willing to give up what you have, that's fine.  Contribute to a charity.  It's a different matter when you want our government to take from me to give to others when I haven't stolen, cheated, found, or was given.

 

If I wanted to live in Sweden or Greece, I'd move there. America claims to be based on an ideal...and that's great, but it also comes with a greater responsibility to work for a better society. I don't look at the world as a matter of math or GDP. As I said before, I have no problem with trying to find creative ways to fix negative consequences of things like illegal immigration. But living in economic fear and creating a scapegoat where we can bring down the whip of our national wrath? I'm not interested in that.

 

I never said anything about welfare...how we structure ourselves economically is a separate issue from immigration. I have no problem with discussing whether our social safety net is sustainable. But history is pretty clear about what happens when a nation creates an "other" to blame and drive out.

 

I do not believe in a society where human beings have to be hammered to fit "the math" or "the law." If things aren't working, then we have to find new ways to accommodate the situation we have.

[brianthephysicist]

My friend gave me this today: http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/31/immigration-and-freedom

 

Still trying to wrap my head around all of the implications of it but I especially appreciate the last line "If the government can restrain the freedom to travel on the basis of an immutable characteristic of birth, there is no limit to the restraints it can impose."