brianthephysicist Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 My bad, guys, I didn't mean to start a debate. I thought everyone would be happy about this one. Shows how forgetful I am lololololol. I feel genuinely bad for the people that tried to come to the US legally and were spat in the face by our broken immigration system. That's why I want this reform so badly. Make it reasonable to do legally and the only people we'll have trying to enter illegally are those coming here with ill intent (or possibly those seeking asylum from war, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). I'm not sure what to do about people already here illegally. I don't believe it to be wise to "ship them back", but I also don't believe it does our society any good to go "bamf" and make them legal aliens. There needs to be some kind of reconciliation, some way of saying yes, there is a punishment for breaking the law, but it is mitigated by our recognition that the law was not entirely just in its execution. I honestly don't know where that line should be, but the fine proposed in the 4 bullet points above sounds like a reasonable starting point from which debate might glean a better option. I'm interested in hearing what people think would be appropriate in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Constitutionally speaking, no one is allowed to bestow upon themselves citizenship in the US. That is an act only Congress can give. I've given the example a zillion times whereby a French diplomat is here, his wife gives birth here, but the child is a French citizen, not a US Citizen. 14th Amendment, Section I states: "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." The French parents are under the jurisdiction of the French government and so are their children unless this family became naturalized US Citizens. So, illegal immigrants, who cross the borders, undetected, etc. with or without children cannot bestow upon themselves US citizenship. It is pretty darn clear. Now we hear about those children who were born here or taken into the country unwittingly, etc. What to do about them? What hard ship is bestowed upon them. But don't we have prisons filled with men and women who also have children? Do we let their parents out so they can care for their children? Can an American run across the border to Canada or Mexico and do the same? Mexico's stance on illegal immigration is pretty amazing: http://factreal.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/mexico-vs-united-states-mexican-immigration-laws-are-tougher/ They treat illegal immigration as a felony. Take a look at how "extreme" their laws are. Canada is no cake walk either http://www.canadaupdates.com/content/new-tougher-canada-laws-curb-illegal-immigration-15819.html And what of those who apply to come here legally, waiting years, decades and that can actually contribute to the betterment of America, assimilate, etc. not for big government dole outs (welfare, medicare, etc.) but to advance this country. Then you have to ask, how does it help the host country? Can localities that are border states afford the cost of illegals who are not contributing. Can you imagine going to another country, expect them to speak your language, give you free medical care, pocket money because you managed to walk yourself in without applying to that country. Good luck trying to take up residence in France or Spain or Russia and get anything but a jail sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Countries be damned. I am interested in what people are helped or harmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Well, there's a reason why half the office space at the USCCB is for migrant relief services. The fact is, much of the agriculture industry is incredibly dependent on migrant worker labor, many of whom are of dubious legal status. There literally would be no one to pick apples in Washington State if you kicked all of them out, let alone other kinds of produce in other states. So in a very real way our economy depends on these people. I like that word brian used - some kind of reconciliation is needed. Our system desperately needs reform. My bible studies professor just became a citizen, and he's been here for ten years with a green card, obtained through working at my university. It took him and his family a long time (this country is the only one his daughter has ever really known), and he had the equivalent of corporate sponsorship. I can't imagine what it's like for the people trying to do it on their own. I really like the ideas coming out of the White House that you've posted in the OP, but I'm not sure how we're going to make that a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Should we bring this to the Debate Table before Hasan and Winchester get here, or should we just wait until they start posting? I doubt that Winchester and I disagree on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I really like the ideas coming out of the White House that you've posted in the OP, but I'm not sure how we're going to make that a reality. That is the million dollar question....what's going to actually happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I doubt that Winchester and I disagree on this. I would have expected you to support generous, but strictly enforced border control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God the Father Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Real refugees fleeing war are the exceptions. Mexico is a warzone. The border needs to be opened because the country clearly and desperately needs hardworking but uneducated individuals to do its menial labor. Drug trafficking, violence, and intimidation are crimes and should be treated as such. Coming to America to escape violence and work for a living? Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I would have expected you to support generous, but strictly enforced border control. I don't have a problem with border control that is used to disrupt things like human trafficking. I have a big problem with Bill Clinton and the Mexican government government passing 'free trade' legislation that lets the heavily subsidized American agro-industry drive Mexican farmers out of business and then allowing the continuance of immigration law the keeps these immigrants and economically abusive conditions when they flee to America to survive. I wouldn't just abolish national borders tomorrow because I think that would have a lot of very negative unintended consequences but I think the elimination of national borders that do interfere with free travel should be a goal that we work towards. I think that migration should be a basic human right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zabbazooey Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) I'm not debating, but my major has me feeling uneasy about requiring English to be learned to grant citizenship. I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe enrolled in English courses, or require proof that they are working towards that goal. Who's going to pay for these classes if the illegals can't? Maybe a non-profit could be started? I will say though, I was at a Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve and the waitress barely spoke any English. It was so frustrating. My fiance ordered COKE. When he needed a refill all she could say was, "You want Diet Coke?" "No, he is drinking regular Coke." "You want Diet Coke?" "NO, REGULAR COKE." "Diet?" "OH MY GOSH, FINE" Seriously, get out of the Unites States' service industry if you can't speak competent English, at least enough to perform the duties of your position. I dunno what my point was, lol. I'm trying to gather my thoughts. Edited February 1, 2013 by zabbazooey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Below that cool green sea of money, millions and millions of people fight to live, search for pearls in the darkest depths of their dreams, hold their breath for years trying to cross poverty to just having something. The children are dead already. We are killing them, that is what America should be saying; on TV, in the streets, in offices, should be saying, “We aren’t giving the children a chance to live.†Mexicans are taking our jobs, they say instead. What they really say is, let them die, and the children too. –Jimmy Santiago Baca, 1977 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I'm not debating, but my major has me feeling uneasy about requiring English to be learned to grant citizenship. I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe enrolled in English courses, or require proof that they are working towards that goal. Who's going to pay for these classes if the illegals can't? Maybe a non-profit could be started? There are non-profits all over the nation do that. I currently volunteer at one. I have a meeting tomorrow with a student of mine from Peru. It's hard. She's here legally and works two jobs and I work two jobs. That makes it difficult to coordinate and it means that she is really taxed for free time. Her English is fine but she wants to go to college and it's hard to get proficient in reading and writing when you don't have hours a week to study. I will say though, I was at a Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve and the waitress barely spoke any English. It was so frustrating. My fiance ordered COKE. When he needed a refill all she could say was, "You want Diet Coke?" "No, he is drinking regular Coke." "You want Diet Coke?" "NO, REGULAR COKE." "Diet?" "OH MY GOSH, FINE" Seriously, get out of the Unites States' service industry if you can't speak competent English, at least enough to perform the duties of your position. I dunno what my point was, lol. I'm trying to gather my thoughts. That's a horrible story of the anguish that Americans face daily in dealing with people who have left an authoritarian state and are trying to make an honest living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zabbazooey Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) I appreciate her trying to make an honest living, I don't have the greatest job either but I work to make ends meet, but I am sorry, you should speak okay enough English to be wait staff at a restaurant. It takes proficient language skills to provide decent customer service, to properly take orders, and to take care of your tables. She could not because she didn't speak English. I am sure she would make a great waitress if she were at a restaurant where she could utilize her native language. But she wasn't, she was at waitress at a Chinese restaurant in Kansas. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but there are other jobs in the restaurant that you can do if you do not possess proficient language skills for the restaurant and country that you work in. And that's cool that non-profits like that exist. Thank you for your hard work and dedication! Edited February 1, 2013 by zabbazooey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zabbazooey Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 For instance, I managed a place where a gentleman made sandwiches but could do everything else with ease. Even take orders. He was a fantastic employee. But he wasn't comfortable with cashiering because he couldn't articulate what he wanted to say to the customers in English. Is it fair? No. But it's business and places need to make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 For what it's worth, I'm kicking myself for not learning Spanish (or at least taking a few classes in high school). I'm starting to look for parish jobs, and SO MANY say "bilingual preferred" or "required" etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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