Immigration Reform

[brianthephysicist]

I found this in my email today. Four principles from the president on reforming our immigration policy. From what I'm hearing, he's getting some bipartisan support on this one, which is an extremely good sign. I'm especially excited about parts 3 and 4, which are very much needed. I really like where this is heading 8{D

 

[Lil Red]

i haven't read up on this stuff, so bear with me.

 

how does this proposal stack up against laws that are already on the books? if they don't enforce the laws that are already on the books regarding immigration laws, what good is making more laws going to do ?

[BG45]

I'd be interested to hear that too, but share Brian's excitement on points 3 and 4.  A lot of "illegal" immigrants already pay taxes to an extent through their paychecks.  Also first generation immigrants, legal and illegal, are shown to be among the least criminal segment of society (well, other than the breaking the law coming here).  Plus, the current system is really murky on a number of things, such as people who were brought here at a young age, don't speak the language of their home nation, but if caught would be deported to a place they don't know and to a language they don't speak.

[PhuturePriest]

Should we bring this to the Debate Table before Hasan and Winchester get here, or should we just wait until they start posting?

[Nihil Obstat]

I support free and unhindered immigration. :|

[Autumn Dusk]

Payroll taxes...and illegal immigrants...taxation without representation.

 

I feel bad for illegal immigrants who

1) were taken here as young children, went to school and had NO idea they were illegal

2) people who legally entered and overstayed because they love America

3) mothers/fathers who leave their families to work for pennies a day and are coheresed to do so*

 

 

*this can be solved by moving more of our manufacturing and outsourcing to Mexico, Guatemala, over India and China.  Companies that knowingly hire illegal workers also usually abuse them.  They are often recruited, too.  Companies who do this should not only be repremandided but pay remediation and those employees should be granted amnesty.  Book to read----Enrique's Journey.

 

 

I know the plight of LEGAL immigrants and they have pity for illegal immigrants...I have a good friend from Indonesia who told me that she'd probably be an illegal immigrant if Indonesia touched the US.  Their lives are unimaginably bad.

 

Those who come here for criminal reasons, etc should be peanliezed by work houses.

[Era Might]

I support free and unhindered immigration. :|

 

I don't think it has to be free and unhindered, but I also refuse to criminalize and villainize it. Immigration is a part of human life, whether people have papers or not...figure out a way to deal with the dangerous aspects without high horse legalism and nationalism. That's the goal, IMO.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Era Might

[Anastasia13]

Payroll taxes...and illegal immigrants...taxation without representation.

 

I feel bad for illegal immigrants who

1) were taken here as young children, went to school and had NO idea they were illegal

2) people who legally entered and overstayed because they love America

I agree with you to a point, but:

 

- They have to pay payroll tax without being willing to do what it takes to be represented. Why is becoming a represented citizen not an option for them? Why does living and operating in this country without doing what it takes to be a citizen something that necessarily excludes them from paying taxes in a country that they reap the benefits of?

 

1. How can parents not know that they are doing that to their kids when they illegally enter the US?  This seems strange to me.

 

2. If they love America so much, why can't they respect it enough to respect our laws and go through the legal processes to rightfully be here.

 

I support pathways to citizenship, but we cannot completely disregard the law, and doing so is not fair to those of us who are legal.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Light and Truth

[cmaD2006]

I second moving this to debate table ... it is a topic bound to become heated.  And due to the community that I am actively involved with, I really don't want to see the discussion here.

 

 

[Autumn Dusk]

I agree with you to a point, but:

 

- They have to pay payroll tax without being willing to do what it takes to be represented. Why is becoming a represented citizen not an option for them? Why does living and operating in this country without doing what it takes to be a citizen something that necessarily excludes them from paying taxes in a country that they reap the benefits of?

 

Again, there are predatory "companies" that help transport and then employ illegals for substandard wages.  These are mostly men for fields and women for cleaning/manufacturing jobs.

 

 

1. How can parents not know that they are doing that to their kids when they illegally enter the US?  This seems strange to me.

 

 

Parents know it's wrong, but the kids who were 5 or under had absolutely no choice and sometimes don't even rememeber their "native land".  They grow up American, in school and with friends and build their whole life here.  Then they graduate high-school and find they can't go to college or get a job or a car, etc.  Should they go back to a country with a language they don't speak?  What their parents did was VERY wrong...but they had no control.

 

2. If they love America so much, why can't they respect it enough to respect our laws and go through the legal processes to rightfully be here.

 

Some try.  I know that my friend from Indonesia has friends who've disappeared into the US and get by hoping that they will not be found by ICE.  They did persue legal means, but there are so many people who prey on immigrants they sometimes find they are here illegally before they even realized it.  Immigration is rife with scams....turning people with the best intention into illegals.  The governemnt is no better.  My friend filed an extension of her visa TWO YEARS before it was due, she called once a month and was assured that it was fine and she would get confirmation "soon".  Two days before her visa expired she was informed she didn't have all the paperwork and due to being "late" had to collect letters from over 15 people.  They are much loved in our community and the Bishop was reached and wrote a letter.  But they were lucky that they had people willing to write all night and find notaries.

 

I support pathways to citizenship, but we cannot completely disregard the law, and doing so is not fair to those of us who are legal.

 

Fair is a funny word...becuase immigration is hard work...but if you are educated and have resources it's tangible and doable.  If you are poor, undeducated, even if your a hard worker, their is a huge chance you will be prey, and the goverment (again even if your self supporting) gives you a hard time.

[Anastasia13]

Again, there are predatory "companies" that help transport and then employ illegals for substandard wages.  These are mostly men for fields and women for cleaning/manufacturing jobs.

 

 

Parents know it's wrong, but the kids who were 5 or under had absolutely no choice and sometimes don't even rememeber their "native land".  They grow up American, in school and with friends and build their whole life here.  Then they graduate high-school and find they can't go to college or get a job or a car, etc.  Should they go back to a country with a language they don't speak?  What their parents did was VERY wrong...but they had no control.

 

Some try.  I know that my friend from Indonesia has friends who've disappeared into the US and get by hoping that they will not be found by ICE.  They did persue legal means, but there are so many people who prey on immigrants they sometimes find they are here illegally before they even realized it.  Immigration is rife with scams....turning people with the best intention into illegals.  The governemnt is no better.  My friend filed an extension of her visa TWO YEARS before it was due, she called once a month and was assured that it was fine and she would get confirmation "soon".  Two days before her visa expired she was informed she didn't have all the paperwork and due to being "late" had to collect letters from over 15 people.  They are much loved in our community and the Bishop was reached and wrote a letter.  But they were lucky that they had people willing to write all night and find notaries.

 

 

Fair is a funny word...becuase immigration is hard work...but if you are educated and have resources it's tangible and doable.  If you are poor, undeducated, even if your a hard worker, their is a huge chance you will be prey, and the goverment (again even if your self supporting) gives you a hard time.

Those predatory companies should be punished if they are in the US. The government can no more be responsible for keeping them in the US than it is responsible for those citizen's who lost pensions from Enron or some other criminal business actions.

 

Each country has a responsibility to it's citizens. If a foreign nation has a lot of nationals getting preyed on for illegal work at lower wages, the best way to deal with is two fold. The US needs to punish such companies severely for breaking the law. Injustice can be dealt with to create laws against this that punish the criminals. Also, within that other country, the situations that lead to people falling for this and the ignorance of this needs to be addressed by the foreign governments involved (national, state, etc.) and by the people of that country who best understand and have the ability to communicate and educate within that country. If this is dealt with solely by the US, if our national bears all of the responsibility of the this, we cannot adequately protect the vulnerable.

 

Parents know it's wrong, but the kids who were 5 or under had absolutely no choice and sometimes don't even rememeber their "native land".  They grow up American, in school and with friends and build their whole life here.  Then they graduate high-school and find they can't go to college or get a job or a car, etc.  Should they go back to a country with a language they don't speak?  What their parents did was VERY wrong...but they had no control.

 

The California DREAM (Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors) Act is a package of California state laws that allow children who were brought into the US under the age of 16 without proper visas/immigration documentation who have attended school on a regular basis and otherwise meet in-state tuition and GPA requirements to apply for student financial aid benefits.^[1] It and past similarly-named legislation have been authored by California State Senator Gil Cedillo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_DREAM_Act [Legal residents' taxes pay for that financial aid. Their parents often don't pay taxes to support education. That is a state issue instead of a federal issue, but it is also not fair. They should have an opportunity to apply to a legal resident status to allow them to obtain employment and work toward citizenship, but they are entitled to more college education money (at least prior to being 24 years old) because their parents broke the laws than students whose parents simply withhold college money (again, prior to 24 when financial aid becomes independent of parents income).

 

One of the differences between your friend and some other illegal people here is that she tried to stay legal. That should be rewarded. Those who have not tried to stay legal and have dismissed the law should not be entitled to as much protection by the law that they dismissed.  I am not well educated on current legislation about this, but I do believe that this is an important distinction.

 

The funniest thing about fair is that as much as we strive for it, as much as we may achieve it in some  ways, we will never entirely have fairness in society.  Life will never be entirely fair.

[BG45]

I don't have it in me to argue, too tired.  But before this gets punted to Debate Table...I respect anyone who is willing to risk their lives to give their family a better life than they would otherwise have the option to attain.

[CatherineM]

When my grandparents came, they were poor and uneducated and looking for a better life. There weren't visas back then. They just got on a boat and came. I followed the rules to immigrate to Canada. There are rules and laws. I don't see why people can't follow them. Real refugees fleeing war are the exceptions.

[Autumn Dusk]

When my grandparents came, they were poor and uneducated and looking for a better life. There weren't visas back then. They just got on a boat and came. I followed the rules to immigrate to Canada. There are rules and laws. I don't see why people can't follow them. Real refugees fleeing war are the exceptions.

 

It's not that easy anymore...there are reams of forms and even those fleeing persecution or war are not givens.

[Era Might]

When my grandparents came, they were poor and uneducated and looking for a better life. There weren't visas back then. They just got on a boat and came. I followed the rules to immigrate to Canada. There are rules and laws. I don't see why people can't follow them. Real refugees fleeing war are the exceptions.

 

There are laws of nature as well, by that I mean human society follows certain predictable behaviors and phenomena. Human migration is one of them. The laws of civil society have to be accommodating to reality or else they're useless. The idea that invisible boundaries and rules is going to stop such a common human phenomenon is not realistic. So the idea, I think, is to be more creative rather than trying to just frustrate the phenomenon.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Era Might