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What Gives?


Augusta

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It's a stupid, sexist criteria that is found in the Old Testament (with the added bonus that you could kill the silly sally once she was discovered) but then Jesus was like 'lol jk' on all the disproportionate killing his father advocated so now people are like 'dude, wth' when people forget that even though the bible is extremely sexist and misogynistic christians aren';t supposed to be and that's what it means when we make a stand against gay marriage. 


Your entire post is jumping to conclusions. Did you read my original post? If so, why did you write the above? Where are your assumptions based?

 

-AK

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In the early church there was a deep sense of purity...there was disagreement whether one could even be forgiven more than once after baptism, and there was also the controversy over whether people who lapsed from the faith or apostasized for fear of persecution could return to the church.

 

 

The more "lenient" perspective on non-virgins today, no doubt, has something to do with larger theological shifts in perspective and emphasis in modern times.

 

 

 

My thoughts direct me towards the concept of the "Appeal to Common Practice."

 

-AK
 

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To be fair to Augusta, I think the assumption here is that he is arguing like Norseman, and I am not sure that is entirely fair. I am finding him slightly disagreeable, but I think he is here essentially with good intentions.

ETA: I also think he is overreacting somewhat to critiques. :)

Edited by Nihil Obstat
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cleaning & bleaching my toilet brush and plunger (which is actually what I'm doing today) is more fun than engaging in this debate (again), so I'm stepping out. :) bye!

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Important marriage filters:

 

1. Do I want to bang this person?

2. Can I stand this person?

3. If I have problems standing this person, does the urge to bang them outweigh that?

 

 

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missionseeker

Firstly, you've ignored other possible criteria, and only focused on two. Some people suggest it is unChristian to reject people if they aren't attractive enough. Do you agree with that? What is the line between desiring certain qualities and being selfish? Perhaps you could lend us your definition?

 

The language you use is very telling. Are people really "demanding a virgin"? That is very negative language. In lieu of a further response, please read my reply to Emily.

 

Your statement of "But refusing to marry anyone who wasn't as "holy" as someone veiws himself to be is self righteous and wrong" is confusing. Are you stating that someone can't reject someone if they have a sexual past? Also, forgiving someone does not mean one must marry them.

 

In choosing whom I go out with, I generally ignore all the criteria you've mentioned, tbh (except personality. And even then, I've gotten that one wrong before, so...)I don't think it's ok to say "I won't date/marry you based on whether or not you are X,Y,or Z."   I wouldn't date someone I wasn't attracted to, no. However, I wouldn't say no to someone just because they're not my idea of the ideal good looking opposite sex. To choose to only marry a virgin is to ignore EVERY OTHER FACET of that person; it is to focus solely on one aspect and that aspect reduces them to an object. To reduce a person to an object - especially a sexual object - is anti Christian. 

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I tell in, from the bottom of my heart, that I wish more than anything I had not given myself to my husband before I married him.  I have regained

my purity but I can never get back the gift of my virginity.   It is possible for a doctor to sew you back up so you can say you are a virgin but that

does not change the facts.  The facts are I squandered a gift of grace from my Heavenly Father and I cannot regain it.  I am no longer ashamed

because Jesus forgave me and I have been to confession about it long ago.  But I cannot get that gift back and I regret it more than anything!

Virgins are special people in God's book.  If someone is a virgin I hope they do not do what I had.  You will never get it back.  You cannot become

a virgin a second time or more.  it doesn't work that way, no matter what a doctor can do.  I regret that day with all my heart!

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My thoughts direct me towards the concept of the "Appeal to Common Practice."

 

-AK
 

What's appeal to common practice?

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In choosing whom I go out with, I generally ignore all the criteria you've mentioned, tbh (except personality. And even then, I've gotten that one wrong before, so...)I don't think it's ok to say "I won't date/marry you based on whether or not you are X,Y,or Z."   I wouldn't date someone I wasn't attracted to, no. However, I wouldn't say no to someone just because they're not my idea of the ideal good looking opposite sex. To choose to only marry a virgin is to ignore EVERY OTHER FACET of that person; it is to focus solely on one aspect and that aspect reduces them to an object. To reduce a person to an object - especially a sexual object - is anti Christian. 

 

Deuteronomy 22

New International Version (NIV)

22 If you see your fellow Israelite’s ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to its owner. If they do not live near you or if you do not know who owns it, take it home with you and keep it until they come looking for it. Then give it back. Do the same if you find their donkey or cloak or anything else they have lost. Do not ignore it.

If you see your fellow Israelite’s donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help the owner get it to its feet.

A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

If you come across a bird’s nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.

When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.

Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled.[a]

10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.

11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.

Marriage Violations

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gateproof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[b] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

30 A man is not to marry his father’s wife; he must not dishonor his father’s bed.[d]

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We definitely have the right to sit down and figure out what it is we want or need in a potential spouse. Everyone is different. I know for some it can be hard marrying/giving yourself to someone knowing they've already shared that experience with someone else.

And this is one of the arguments for virgins wanting to marry virgins. The reason I came here is because there are people in my friends life who are praying that she does not find someone to marry because of her desire to only marry a virgin. The reason much of the discussion here is enlightening is due also to the fact that nearly all of the language, bad faith assumptions, and general arguments are common between quite a few people here and the aforementioned individuals in my friend's life. I came here wondering why people would do something so awful, and I had the "pleasure" of having it all demonstrated right before my eyes. Now I understand the anguish I see in her, and now I understand where it all comes from.

 

 

They tend to be eviscerated because -- and this is the honest truth -- most people we have seen in this community wanting to marry a virgin *are* unforgiving and condescending toward others.

I think there is a fairly obvious mistake in carrying over assumptions between people. Given my previous comment about how many here ignored my first few posts and mentioned completely unrelated things, I think this observation is well-founded.

 

 

That is not a reflection on you, Augusta. But conversations about this subject in the past have turned heated and very personal. People who are not virgins were treated as though they were unworthy of a virgin's love or damaged goods. A lot of people were hurt. Again, that has nothing to do with you ... but please try to be patient as this is a sensitive topic in the phamily.

While it doesn't immediately come across that way, I will trust the fact that it isn't a reflection on me (I'm only the messenger). Some people seem to overlook the fact that virgins are sometimes attacked for doing nothing wrong. It's not even logical (i.e. "Do the right things, get attacked anyway"). I will try to be sensitive, but keep in mind that I bear the sorrows of my close friend.


 

 

I mean this in charity and love: I can't help but notice your original post seems highly defensive and almost confrontational. Perhaps a little gentleness and a helpful explanation of why you'd like to marry a virgin would have better results.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm here on a "fact-finding mission" on behalf of a friend, who, as I mentioned above, is very distraught at the similar treatment she has received.

 

 

God bless you. Welcome aboard!

Thank you. I hope to stay a while. We'll see how that goes.

 

 

-AK

 

 


 

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FutureCarmeliteClaire

This is one of those threads that makes me feel like VS is a really, really pleasant place and that I should go back there.

 

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This is one of those threads that makes me feel like VS is a really, really pleasant place and that I should go back there.

VSers love their drama too. I have seen those threads that get locked. Y'all are wack. :|

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