Reconciling Personal Beliefs With Church Teaching

[MissyP89]

Well, I must say, I am pleasantly surprised.

 

So this is how I started out the convo, because I KNOW my fiance:

 

"Honey, did you know that NFP is up to 99% effective if used properly? Just as much as the pill. It's not the rhythm method. And it doesn't have the side effects like migraines, moodiness (to which he raised his brow, lol) etc"

 

...

 

"As long as it's that effective and we don't have babies right now I am cool, I didn't know the pill was that bad for you."

 

I didn't know it'd be that easy. Of course, I didn't delve into the pro-life aspect or the faith aspect, but I had to plant the seed lol. 

 

He agreed that he wanted to take a class to learn how to "maximize effectiveness" (his words). He is a very sweet man. :) I am so lucky.

 

I'll look for something in my area, in person would be best for he and I. This is so cool! I am looking forward to learning more and more about it. I am quite sick of the pill, literally. (I know to abstain right now because we aren't married anyways...but soon!)

 

A bunch of random thoughts because it's late. Not sure what's been said yet, but here I go!

 

Yes, they will work with you no matter what your situation or faith. Remember, NFP is a scientific method of getting pregnant or avoiding pregnancy. It's not a religious thing. Yes, many of the teachers are Christian, but at the end of the day their job is to teach you the method. If you were an atheist single mom, they would teach you. :) No worries!

I'm not married and won't be for several years yet, but I started to teach myself NFP about six months ago, both to make sure I have a solid understanding when I do marry, and because my cycle got weird for a while and I wanted to understand why. It's been a great experience so far. The day I actually realized what my body was trying to tell me was so exciting. I'm so much more in tune with myself now. NFP will be great for you to learn no matter what you and your fiance decide to do. Just be aware that the Pill can mess with those physical signs, so you won't get the same "picture" you would if your body was behaving naturally.

 

I confess that right now I don't use an official method -- I don't have access to classes, books, or an NFP doctor. But I did learn to describe my mucus, etc, and could buy a basal thermometer tomorrow if I wanted to track my temperature (I plan to soon). You can do your charts however you'd like, but given your situation and how close you are to the wedding, it's probably good to have the classes. You can always customize things down the road. 

 

www.iusenfp.com and www.1flesh.org are both wonderful resources. Encouraging, too.

 

You can learn more about Billings here: http://woomb.org/

 

Basically what I did was I found a list of the standard descriptions for mucus, and then used the info I found on WOOMB and elsewhere to start charting.

 

Something that would be great for your fiance is letting him be a part of the process by writing things down on the chart and helping you interpret the data. That way he feels empowered, too -- he can look at your chart and understand what your body is doing just as well as you can. 

 

Good luck. We're here for you! Conversion is a process. It's not going to happen overnight. Be gentle and patient with yourself.

Edited January 29, 2013 by MissyP89

[MissyP89]

ETA: There are two books on this that are amazing. One is an NFP instruction book and the other is about sex and love and NFP.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Fertility-Anniversary-Edition/dp/0060881909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359438360&sr=8-1&keywords=taking+charge+of+your+fertility

 

http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Sex-Toe-Curling-Mind-Blowing-Infallible/dp/0824524713/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359438451&sr=1-1&keywords=holy+sex+a+catholic+guide+to+toe-curling+mind-blowing+infallible+loving

 

I haven't read the first, but Holy Sex is absolutely amazing. It's practical, informative, blunt and funny.

[Brother Adam]

Hi ZZ,

 

Without trying to step on anyone's toes who have already done a good job answering many of your questions, I want to add a few comments.

 

(long)

 

Okay, so as some of the 'veteran' PM-ers know, I was once a devout Catholic, discerning religious life a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I kind of got scared about religious life and am not really eligible anyways, so I veered off in the other direction. 

 

I am surprised! I remember you from that other galaxy and did not know you went through this journey. I still think very highly of you. You are a compassionate soul.

 

I dove into Mormonism for a while (lulz), and they smothered me to death and I left. Plus I didn't like a lot of the theology, giving a mandatory 10% tithe to be temple worthy, the pressure to baptize my now fiance, 4-5 hours of church, bleh! I did something bad, I faked a temple recommend interview to go on a church trip to Nauvoo and get inside the temple. The temple was sooo secretive and mysterious, I couldn't afford the 10% tithe, so I lied to get in. Well, that was it for me. After that trip, I never went back to any church (September 2011)

 

White jumpsuits, genders separated, being baptized for dead people in a humongous font up to my waist, it just screams CULT CULT CULT. 

 

Some things are just that obvious. It took me about 2 minutes to convince one of our parishioners that he should not join the Mormon faith of his fiance. He ended up splitting up with her and marrying a beautiful young Catholic girl.

 

After that, I did a lot of soul searching, and kind of figured I was an atheist. I had no proof, I could find no religion that suited me. I found religion to be restrictive, the bible to be contradictory, I rejected all of it.

 

No one can blame you for being honest with yourself. The important thing is that you did not quit looking for truth, for what would ultimately fulfill you.

 

All along, there have been inklings to go back to church, not just any church. The Catholic church. Even with my doubt in God's existence, it's always tugged at my heartstrings. Hence why I still lurk/post on PM quite a bit. (mostly lurk nowadays)

 

He is flirting with you. He wants you to come home. Only he can fulfill the emptiness so completely you can live in joy forever. God is jealous for you. He loves you in a way that is deeper and fuller than your fiance or anyone else can.

 

I've been toying with the idea of going back to Church (my fiance is a very lapsed Catholic as well, although he hates Mass) but my liberal beliefs get in the way. Here are some things I have trouble with: (and I am not thinking my views are superior right now, I am really trying to figure this out, so bear with me)

 

Keep going with this. Keep looking for truth. Don't settle for something that sounds like it makes sense, but deep down something sounds off. The Church has always urged people to use reason and logic. That is why she founded the university and came up with the scientific method.

• I am cohabiting before marriage (but, we are getting married in May, ceremony in July) and I don't see much wrong with pre-marital anything. (no disrespect to anyone) My fiance and I have been together nearly 4 years.

Actions have meanings. Sex has a meaning too. It is a sacrificial gift of love and of yourself to another person and a sign of total commitment. In pre-marital sex you are offering that sign of total commitment without giving total commitment. Sex outside the protection of marriage is always a contradictory sign.

• I use birth control, am reluctant to use NFP as I have bipolar disorder, pretty bad. If I got pregnant, I am certain I would have to be hospitalized because I take lithium and could NOT go without it for 9 months. Have tried all other mood stabilizers, like Lamictal which is safe in utero, and they aren't enough. Also, we are broke, I am going to school and we absolutely could not afford a child right now.

It sounds like people have covered NFP really well. NFP solves a ton of problems. It hasn't been picked up by most doctors because it is inconvienent. Our hedonistic society wants a quick fix that is no fix at all. Pills also cause cancer. Contraception keeps you from being completely free to love your spouse and give yourself completely to them. Using NFP my wife discovered that her post-partum depression could be quickly resolved with progestorin shots. She was better in a matter of weeks. Any other doctor than those at the Paul VI Institute would call you crazy for recommending it, but then look at the Churches record with scientific advances.

• I fully support gay rights. I understand that being gay is intrinsically disordered according to Church teaching, but I believe the government should grant full legal rights to these couples. Obviously churches have jurisdiction over letting gay couples marry in their respective churches. My cousin is a lesbian, so this is something I have a hard time with.

I recommend reading "7 Myths about the Catholic Church", it addresses this fully. One thing to keep in mind is that the interest the government has in regulating marriage is because the only way to produce offspring is from the sexual union of a fertile male and female. (Yes, I know about IVF and tube babies, but we are talking the norm, and even those still take the union of sperm and eggs). No matter how many times two men or women have sex, they will never have a baby.

 

A state has a serious interest in the health of families and setting up benefits and assistance for marriages and families. Non-heterosexual unions can never be marriages. Marriages produce children and parents are responsible for the upbringing and education of children. We know that children benefit from a father and a mother. That is why we see single parenting as a deficiency. Likewise denying children of a father figure or mother figure is problematic. Then there are the psychological problems, depression, and other things that pop up in children brought up by same sex couples. It is possible to recognize that it is possible to raise a child in a same sex home and have them "turn out fine" or even excel just as it is possible and happens all the time in single parent homes. That doesn't mean it should be sanctioned or that it is ideal or healthy. We also know that same sex divorces are 500% higher than heterosexual unions.

 

Allowing same sex unions turns marriage from something for the support, propogation, and education of children to a temporary social contract based on emotion and hedonism. It is a short step from marriages of three people, or marriages to animals. Or any other type of union. Just as all sexual activity outside of the protection of marriage is sinful, any type of sexual union outside of marriage cannot itself be marriage or be supported by the government.

 

That doesn't mean we do not accept or love people with same sex attraction any less than we love any other person with a tendancy towards something that is not good for them.

• I am pro-choice. NOT pro abortion. I don't like abortion, I don't think I could ever, ever do such a thing. But at the same time, I want the option available to all women. I don't agree with it, but my personal religious or whatever it is beliefs should not get in the way of a woman and her body. Especially in cases of life of the mother, incest, and rape.

Semantics aside, I would encouage you to watch the movie 180. It is short and freely available on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

 

The pro-abortion movement is based on the idea that some people are inferior to other people. Those who believe in abortion believe that the desire of the mother always is more important than the right of a child to live. Often times abortion results not even from the desire of the mother, but from someone who has deceived or manipulated her. Abortion always results in the death of a child. If you send me your mailling address I will mail you a copy of Abby Johnson's story "Unplanned" for free, along with other free resources and testimonies of post-abortive women. We are not just talking about a womans body, we are talking about the life of a child who is tortured and killed. 55 million of them.

• This is silly to mention, but I support the legalization and recreational use of marijuana. In moderation, not toke up all day every day sort of thing. Kind of like winding down the day with a glass of wine. I don't do any of that now because of school, but I know the church is against use of mind altering substance.

 

I still love the church, very much so. I love the rich tradition, the history, adoration (I miss that), the Eucharist, etc. I just have a hard time with these issues. I feel like if I went back to church, I would be forcing myself to live a life I'd be absolutely unhappy with. I don't think I could ever advocate against gay rights, etc etc. Am I just trying to put a square peg in a round hole? Or should I keep trying to figure out these inklings that for some reason, keep drawing me back to religion and the Church in particular?

 

Keep learning. The teachings of the Church are rational - when we discover the what and the why, what did not make sense before starts to make sense. Until then it can be hard to get behind, but you are willing to learn. That counts for a lot. You spoke of your love for Adoration. Please go there. Spend time with the Lord. Give him all of this. Our hearts are restless until they rest in him.

 

Any way I can start tackling this? It seems insurmountable but I am willing to change.

 

It's not insurmountable at all. You are tackling it. Good for you.
 

[HisChildForever]

Just prepare your fiance as you read more about natural family planning. In natural family planning books he will learn more about a woman's privates than he ever wished to know. I personally could have gone a lifetime without knowing there was a mucus membrane down there...

 

No offense, but grow up. Nothing about a woman's body is disgusting or gross, which your comment seems to imply.

ZZ - "reversion" is a term used to describe a fallen away Catholic returning to the Church. You wouldn't be considered a "convert" because you're ALREADY Catholic, just not practicing.

[PhuturePriest]

No offense, but grow up. Nothing about a woman's body is disgusting or gross, which your comment seems to imply.

ZZ - "reversion" is a term used to describe a fallen away Catholic returning to the Church. You wouldn't be considered a "convert" because you're ALREADY Catholic, just not practicing.

 

No offense, but get a sense of humor. It was a joke. If you can't laugh about your own beaver dam biology (Which I joke about mine all the time), you need to lighten up. You're too sensitive and I'm getting tired of getting chewed out by you every time I say a joke you don't quite appreciate.

 

Edited January 30, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[Winchester]

No offense, but grow up. Nothing about a woman's body is disgusting or gross

[MissyP89]

Oh, Winnie.

[cmaD2006]

Winchester ... I'm going to have nightmares now.  Thanks.

[Winchester]

Oh, Winnie.

 

ikr?

[HisChildForever]

No offense, but get a sense of humor. It was a joke. If you can't laugh about your own beaver dam biology (Which I joke about mine all the time), you need to lighten up. You're too sensitive and I'm getting tired of getting chewed out by you every time I say a joke you don't quite appreciate.

 

Um, I think you're exaggerating sweetie. I made a comment about the way you tossed your cat. I'm not on this forum nearly enough to see your jokes. I don't even recall you making any.

[HisChildForever]

Anyway, learned today that pregnant women with bipolar disorder seek ECT for treatment and are happy with the results. Will have to research this though like the stats. Just had to pass that info along to the OP.

Oh here:

 

 When used in pregnant patients, ECT has relatively few side effects and may pose fewer risks than untreated mood episodes or pharmacotherapy with a teratogenic agent.

 

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=176724

 

[zabbazooey]

Anyway, learned today that pregnant women with bipolar disorder seek ECT for treatment and are happy with the results. Will have to research this though like the stats. Just had to pass that info along to the OP.

Oh here:

 

 

 

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=176724

 

Thank you for taking the time to look that up for me, very interesting. :) I have looked into ECT and it's not for me. It can cause memory loss long term. But maybe I will reconsider when/if I am pregnant and med free. As of right now, ECT freaks me out and I already am a ditz without any extra help. 

[Winchester]

Um, I think you're exaggerating sweetie. I made a comment about the way you tossed your cat. I'm not on this forum nearly enough to see your jokes. I don't even recall you making any.

 

you got pwn3d

[StMichael]

Simple answer...

 

It is HIS will be done, not "my" will be done.

 

 

(long)

 

Okay, so as some of the 'veteran' PM-ers know, I was once a devout Catholic, discerning religious life a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I kind of got scared about religious life and am not really eligible anyways, so I veered off in the other direction. 

 

I dove into Mormonism for a while (lulz), and they smothered me to death and I left. Plus I didn't like a lot of the theology, giving a mandatory 10% tithe to be temple worthy, the pressure to baptize my now fiance, 4-5 hours of church, bleh! I did something bad, I faked a temple recommend interview to go on a church trip to Nauvoo and get inside the temple. The temple was sooo secretive and mysterious, I couldn't afford the 10% tithe, so I lied to get in. Well, that was it for me. After that trip, I never went back to any church (September 2011)

 

White jumpsuits, genders separated, being baptized for dead people in a humongous font up to my waist, it just screams CULT CULT CULT. 

 

After that, I did a lot of soul searching, and kind of figured I was an atheist. I had no proof, I could find no religion that suited me. I found religion to be restrictive, the bible to be contradictory, I rejected all of it.

 

All along, there have been inklings to go back to church, not just any church. The Catholic church. Even with my doubt in God's existence, it's always tugged at my heartstrings. Hence why I still lurk/post on PM quite a bit. (mostly lurk nowadays)

 

I've been toying with the idea of going back to Church (my fiance is a very lapsed Catholic as well, although he hates Mass) but my liberal beliefs get in the way. Here are some things I have trouble with: (and I am not thinking my views are superior right now, I am really trying to figure this out, so bear with me)

 

• I am cohabiting before marriage (but, we are getting married in May, ceremony in July) and I don't see much wrong with pre-marital anything. (no disrespect to anyone) My fiance and I have been together nearly 4 years.
• I use birth control, am reluctant to use NFP as I have bipolar disorder, pretty bad. If I got pregnant, I am certain I would have to be hospitalized because I take lithium and could NOT go without it for 9 months. Have tried all other mood stabilizers, like Lamictal which is safe in utero, and they aren't enough. Also, we are broke, I am going to school and we absolutely could not afford a child right now.
• I fully support gay rights. I understand that being gay is intrinsically disordered according to Church teaching, but I believe the government should grant full legal rights to these couples. Obviously churches have jurisdiction over letting gay couples marry in their respective churches. My cousin is a lesbian, so this is something I have a hard time with.
• I am pro-choice. NOT pro abortion. I don't like abortion, I don't think I could ever, ever do such a thing. But at the same time, I want the option available to all women. I don't agree with it, but my personal religious or whatever it is beliefs should not get in the way of a woman and her body. Especially in cases of life of the mother, incest, and rape.
• This is silly to mention, but I support the legalization and recreational use of marijuana. In moderation, not toke up all day every day sort of thing. Kind of like winding down the day with a glass of wine. I don't do any of that now because of school, but I know the church is against use of mind altering substances.

I still love the church, very much so. I love the rich tradition, the history, adoration (I miss that), the Eucharist, etc. I just have a hard time with these issues. I feel like if I went back to church, I would be forcing myself to live a life I'd be absolutely unhappy with. I don't think I could ever advocate against gay rights, etc etc. Am I just trying to put a square peg in a round hole? Or should I keep trying to figure out these inklings that for some reason, keep drawing me back to religion and the Church in particular?

 

I will say -- I have NOOOO desire to be a Mormon, evangelical, or any other Christian denomination. Tried em all, don't like em.

 

My fiance is kind of liberal. He is more of a live-and-let-live person. He considers himself an agnostic. He has been with me through this whole rollercoaster ride, God bless his soul. He isn't against the Catholic church, he just doesn't like it to 'drag' on and dislikes attending Mass. He's more "spiritual than religious" - you might say.

 

Any way I can start tackling this? It seems insurmountable but I am willing to change.

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Simple answer...

It is HIS will be done, not "my" will be done.

I have a feeling that when people describe you, the first word they use is not "delicacy".