Reconciling Personal Beliefs With Church Teaching

[Slappo]

I hear you on the legal aspect of gay union issue. I really do. My mom is a practicing lesbian and her and her partner both attend and participate in activities at a Catholic Church. Sacramentally, gay marriage is an impossibility. The legal "perks" given to a married couple though, have nothing to do with theology or morality.

 

What if I wanted to live with my brother as we were both widowers at an early age? Live an entirely moral life, but we shared finances, etc... If we both had kids and didn't want to get re-married, why couldn't one of us stay at home and the other go to work full time? Why couldn't all the kids and the stay at home sibling be under the life insurance plan of the working sibling? None of that has to do with morality or theology. It all has to do with fringe benefits, the rules of filing tax returns, etc. Now of course there's tons of arguments against this life style anyways such as that the kids should have a female role model, a mother figure etc etc, but again that is about parenting and whats best for kids not about morality or theology. Obviously the type of relationship I would have with my brother as being completely financial/social/economical is not the same as what a romantic gay couple would have.

 

So on that note, I really struggle too with the benefits and legal portion of civil union. At the same time, I'm staunchly opposed to people with SSA acting out in a homosexual manner, so I don't really want them to get the benefits as it would be an encouragement to their lifestyle which I view to be morally unacceptable. I just wanted you to know that I hear you and understand where you're coming from on the "equal rights/gay marriage" front.

[HisChildForever]

I might be in the minority among devout Catholics, but "gay rights" or gay "marriage" is extremely low on my list of concerns for society. I obey the Church on this matter and if I was called to vote on it I would not vote in favor. That's my duty as a Catholic. But I'm not really interested in speaking against it. My number one concern is abortion, and I think that's what you should try to tackle first on your list. In other words, try to prioritize? Take it one topic at a time. And maybe focus on something first that won't bring you that much distress - I think the topic that'd bring you the most distress, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the issue of birth control (for BC, not medical reasons) and your MI. Especially because, whether you use BC or not, this is something you have to face at some point down the line when you want a child. Overall that seems like a hugely complex situation.

 

There are other things to keep in mind as you flesh this out. I would be more concerned on having a marriage approved by the Church right now, since you seem to be leaning towards reversion, than co-habitation, especially since the latter isn't going to change. Obviously the issue of co-habitation affects a Church approved marriage but you know what I mean. And even if you're "okay" with pre-marital living situations, since you're considering the Church again, just make sure not to openly support this and other issues like gay unions to avoid confusing non-Catholics.

 

I'm not sure what else to say. I mean, my post isn't really about the theology of it, I'm just trying to help you organize your thoughts better before you decide to delve into the theological side of things.

[zabbazooey]

That's great that you are getting married. I would rather see people getting married rather than simply cohabiting (plus I'm honestly happy you found someone you love and who loves you, so congrats!). I am curious why you don't see a problem with not waiting until marriage, or what you think are reasons presented against it?  I've run into a few reasons over the last couple of years that go beyond simply saying scripture and church says don't do it and looks also at the social and emotional impact on a person.  I posted many of these in the dating vs. courtship thread recently.

 

With regard to birth control, no birth control is perfect.Condoms are only 90-something percent effective. I used to go to a church with a woman who had one of those implanted hormone birth control things. She still got pregnant. That is one thing to consider when the only reason to use it is that you cannot afford a child. I'm sure others can give statistics on how NFP works and there may be guidance available to help use this method effectively. I just read an article on bipolar medication including lithium. It may not be as dangerous to the child as first thought, but in your case with the bipolar medication, you might talk to a priest (or is it bishop or something?). There are ways to get some kind of permission if it is for a medical reason provided it is severe enough, I think.

I guess I don't have a problem with premarital sex or cohabitation because, well, I just wasn't brought up that way. My parents were secular, raised with zero religion, no bible, nada. I am not the sleazy type and have only really lived with/etc (not going into details lol) a guy unless we were engaged. That is 2 people, I was previously engaged 4 years ago. Ended badly lol. But had I married that man without living with him, I would not have realized how totally incompatible and horrible we were for each other. If I had gone off of my experience not living/sleeping together, I'd have a divorce under my belt before I turned 22 years old. (I'm 25 now) 

 

Also, now I realize that I can't get a dispensation for birth control. It'd take a LONG talk to convince mr. hubby to use NFP. I don't think he'd like that. Not that it should matter, but my mom doesn't like him (he doesn't make enough $$ for her liking and she thinks I should find a breadwinner) and would flip out if we weren't using contraceptives.

 

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that He established the Catholic Church?

 

Take that as rhetorical if you like, either way.

What I mean is that this should be the very first question. All your issues with Church teachings are irrelevant if you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. And, if you do believe that He is God and He established the Church, then we start looking at specific teachings.

 

Are you attracted to the Church again because it is comfortable, or because you like it culturally, or are you feeling a pull because of Faith?

 

I do not mean to sound aggressive, by the way. :) I cannot tell from your posts how you feel about this, but I do think it should be the very first question we deal with.

Well, I believe the church is the One True Church. It has apostolic succession, a long history, I do believe in Jesus Christ (albeit my faith is a lot weaker/shakier than it used to be), I believe in the True Presence. That's why I have a hard time with my feelings/beliefs.

 

In a perfect world, everyone would be Catholic, and follow all the rules. I don't live in a perfect world. When I was young, and thought I knew everything, and was invincible, I believed stuff that I don't now. The older I've gotten, and the more of life I've experienced, have shown me how much my parents actually knew.

Cafeteria Catholics irritate me, probably because I was one once. I do understand about your meds and fear of getting pregnant because I deal with bipolars and schizophrenics every day. Bottom line is that if you were my kid, I'd rather you were in church, but questioning, than outside church. As you get older, and Truth is slowly revealed to you, your understanding of things will evolve.

When your ideals start to get shaken by learning the reality of life, you need the Church there to catch you. My two suggestions are to come back and get your marriage situation fixed. You can attend mass and not receive communion. You can feel the Spirit, engage with the community, hear the readings and homilies, yet show your disagreement by not approaching the altar.

My Dad did that. He had automatic grounds for annulment but refused to go through it. He stood proud not receiving as a personal statement that he thought the Church's stand on divorce was stupid. That and he was just extremely stubborn. There is also something to be said for AA's philosophy to fake it until you feel it. You're not going to learn the beauty of the truth of the faith outside wandering around. Come inside.

Well, we are getting legally married on May 3. I asked my fiance today if we can bump up the date for that (we have 1 friend coming as a witness) since we are having the wedding ceremony in July (it's so much cheaper and less hassle to get a marriage license in my state than MN, where I'm having it) but he is very stubborn about it. We are signing a lease in March so I'm not going to live at my dad's with no bed or anything really just so we aren't living in sin. I know it sounds dumb, but really only 3 months to go so it's not worth it to change the living situation. I know I am in a state of mortal sin, it's not that I don't care, I just can't change much without spending money I don't have or really inconveniencing myself and him for 90 days.

 

I think it is a good idea to go back and still ponder these things at the same time. Of course, I will not be receiving the Eucharist until I am worthy, and at the EARLIEST that is after May 3 :)

 

In your case, I'd actually say that NFP is the safest for you. 

 

Most NFP is 99% effective when the rules are followed. (Which is the key, most people who knock it, didn't follow the rules)

Condoms 90% 

Birth Control 93% 

(Full disclosure; I do realize that different studies give different numbers for each of these, but NFP is usually around 98-99% from what I've read)

 

 

I actually have some experience with this. (well, the life of mom and baby being at risk if pregnancy were to occur) 

 

When my wife and I first got married, it was discovered that she had a hole in her heart. If she had gotten pregnant, she would have most likely died and not carried the child to term. So what did we do? We used NFP (Billings Ovulation Method, really simple to use) followed the rules for the year we needed to until the heart was fixed. During this time I like to think that we still had a healthy sexual relationship. 

 

NFP works the best. The key though is that both spouses need to be on board with it. 

:eek:  I had NO CLUE it was that effective if used properly. I don't want to use it as a 'contraceptive' as I know that is inherently sinful, but it would be advantageous to wait to have children until I can consult my doctors regarding the meds situation. I will talk to him more about it, I don't think he'd be on board. He's all about trusting modern medicine, even if it is not good for you! His problem is that he was never a faithful Catholic, never confirmed. His mom's side (gma, aunt/uncle) are very devout. He would never understand the reason behind NFP and would think it's silly. Of course we aren't married yet, but I don't know how to approach it with him. I am going to admit, I am completely frozen scared about trusting God with NFP...  :unsure:

[Nihil Obstat]

Well, I believe the church is the One True Church. It has apostolic succession, a long history, I do believe in Jesus Christ (albeit my faith is a lot weaker/shakier than it used to be), I believe in the True Presence. That's why I have a hard time with my feelings/beliefs.

So then here is my follow up question. If you do have faith, if you believe that the Church was founded by Christ, who is God, then is there anything at all that is more important than properly responding to Christ's call? If God is truly God, if what the Church says is true, what is there that is so important that you would reject Him for it?

[zabbazooey]

I might be in the minority among devout Catholics, but "gay rights" or gay "marriage" is extremely low on my list of concerns for society. I obey the Church on this matter and if I was called to vote on it I would not vote in favor. That's my duty as a Catholic. But I'm not really interested in speaking against it. My number one concern is abortion, and I think that's what you should try to tackle first on your list. In other words, try to prioritize? Take it one topic at a time. And maybe focus on something first that won't bring you that much distress - I think the topic that'd bring you the most distress, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the issue of birth control (for BC, not medical reasons) and your MI. Especially because, whether you use BC or not, this is something you have to face at some point down the line when you want a child. Overall that seems like a hugely complex situation.

 

There are other things to keep in mind as you flesh this out. I would be more concerned on having a marriage approved by the Church right now, since you seem to be leaning towards reversion, than co-habitation, especially since the latter isn't going to change. Obviously the issue of co-habitation affects a Church approved marriage but you know what I mean. And even if you're "okay" with pre-marital living situations, since you're considering the Church again, just make sure not to openly support this and other issues like gay unions to avoid confusing non-Catholics.

 

I'm not sure what else to say. I mean, my post isn't really about the theology of it, I'm just trying to help you organize your thoughts better before you decide to delve into the theological side of things.

What do you mean by reversion? I am a tad confused? I'm trying to convert my thinking. The abortion issue is very important, but I don't know, the more I think about it, I feel bad about my pro-choice views. I'm evolving, I'm changing, I'm a weird individual lol. Thank God I met my fiance! :) 

 

Like I said above (I was typing out responses after you had posted) I know cohabitation is wrong in the eyes of the Church, I just have a hard time viewing it's wrong. Maybe someday, down the line, we'll be worthy Catholics who will have a marriage recognized by the church. But I can't think that far ahead. My fiance is kinda hippy-dippy buddhist/agnostic type, with Catholic history, so I don't know if he'd ever want that. 

 

And I will be zip lipped about my thoughts regarding premarital stuff at church/to other Catholics. I don't want to scandalize everyone lol. I'm just kind of a jumble of junk in my head, my fellow parishioners don't need to know that right now. That's why I am glad I have awesome PM peeps to bounce ideas off of.

So then here is my follow up question. If you do have faith, if you believe that the Church was founded by Christ, who is God, then is there anything at all that is more important than properly responding to Christ's call? If God is truly God, if what the Church says is true, what is there that is so important that you would reject Him for it?

 

To put it bluntly, I am selfish and my way of living is easier and more convenient. But I want to change.

You know what I just thought of ... and he'd really raise his eyebrow here ... but we do have a 2 bedroom (March 1st) we could share the apartment but sleep separately until the wedding? Would that be wrong?

[Nihil Obstat]

To put it bluntly, I am selfish and my way of living is easier and more convenient. But I want to change.

This is an excellent answer. The fact that you recognize this gives you huge advantages. What do you think will be the key for you, to 'get over yourself' and come to accept moral demands outside of yourself and your own way of thinking? Basically, what does it take to go from "non serviam", to "fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum"?

[Lil Red]

:eek:  I had NO CLUE it was that effective if used properly. I don't want to use it as a 'contraceptive' as I know that is inherently sinful, but it would be advantageous to wait to have children until I can consult my doctors regarding the meds situation. I will talk to him more about it, I don't think he'd be on board. He's all about trusting modern medicine, even if it is not good for you! His problem is that he was never a faithful Catholic, never confirmed. His mom's side (gma, aunt/uncle) are very devout. He would never understand the reason behind NFP and would think it's silly. Of course we aren't married yet, but I don't know how to approach it with him. I am going to admit, I am completely frozen scared about trusting God with NFP...  :unsure:

perhaps contact the Pope Paul VI Institute and see if they could do a consult? http://www.popepaulvi.com/

[cmaD2006]

being Catholic is more than voting for the "right" party or the "right" candidate. We put our faith first, before politics, and sometimes that includes not voting for either party.

 

as always, you are phamily, and we're happy to have you here. i'd encourage you to start your prayer life again (however you feel comfortable doing so), before you start delving into your issues too deeply, so that your heart may be open and fertile ground for the Holy Spirit. :)

 

 

In a perfect world, everyone would be Catholic, and follow all the rules. I don't live in a perfect world. When I was young, and thought I knew everything, and was invincible, I believed stuff that I don't now. The older I've gotten, and the more of life I've experienced, have shown me how much my parents actually knew.

Cafeteria Catholics irritate me, probably because I was one once. I do understand about your meds and fear of getting pregnant because I deal with bipolars and schizophrenics every day. Bottom line is that if you were my kid, I'd rather you were in church, but questioning, than outside church. As you get older, and Truth is slowly revealed to you, your understanding of things will evolve.

When your ideals start to get shaken by learning the reality of life, you need the Church there to catch you. My two suggestions are to come back and get your marriage situation fixed. You can attend mass and not receive communion. You can feel the Spirit, engage with the community, hear the readings and homilies, yet show your disagreement by not approaching the altar.

My Dad did that. He had automatic grounds for annulment but refused to go through it. He stood proud not receiving as a personal statement that he thought the Church's stand on divorce was stupid. That and he was just extremely stubborn. There is also something to be said for AA's philosophy to fake it until you feel it. You're not going to learn the beauty of the truth of the faith outside wandering around. Come inside.

 

I go with what both CatherineM and LilRed said ...

 

go back to Church.  Get the marriage situation resolved.  And go from there.

 

Look -- when I started going through RCIA I remember telling the priest point blank that I was pro-choice.  He was a wise man.  He didn't argue, and left it at that.  If he had argued -- I'm pretty sure I would have walked out that door instead of continuing RCIA.

 

Prayer is key -- prayer, and reading the Catechism, and the documents of the Church.  Prayer 1st.  Catechism 2nd.  Church docs 3rd. 

 

It is through prayer that you will start/continue growing in Christ.  That relationship will then help you to see what the Truth is.  We (those of us on Phatmass) can go through a complete intellectual argument with you, but at the end of it all it isn't the intellect that will do it (because ANY point really can be argued).  It is the heart.

 

So ... come back :).  And pray, especially pray for an open heart.  And when you're ready also go consult a wise priest, one you can trust to help you through your issues.

Edited January 29, 2013 by cmariadiaz

[zabbazooey]

When you say fix the marriage issues, do you just mean get married so I am not cohabiting? What do you guys mean by that? We have a date set, I'm trying to persuade him to get legally married sooner. There's no sacramental marriage on the horizon, for a while anyways...

[BigJon16]

Oh, and Confession! :) It is so awesome.

[Nihil Obstat]

Oh, and Confession! :) It is so awesome.

Indeed.

Zabba, you have a particular gift here because you can go to confession literally any time you want. :) 

[zabbazooey]

Blunt question time -- What is the point of me going to confession if I live with my soon to be husband? Don't I automatically qualify for mortal sin anyways? Shouldn't I just wait until we are married?

 

That's why I posed the question of our 2 bdrm apartment, sleeping in separate rooms and maintaining celibacy until the wedding? (the May legal wedding)

[Nihil Obstat]

Blunt question time -- What is the point of me going to confession if I live with my soon to be husband? Don't I automatically qualify for mortal sin anyways? Shouldn't I just wait until we are married?
 
That's why I posed the question of our 2 bdrm apartment, sleeping in separate rooms and maintaining celibacy until the wedding? (the May legal wedding)

Well, you have to be able to say the Act of Contrition in all honesty, importantly:

I firmly resolve, with the help of Your grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.

 

If you cannot yet go into Confession truly meaning that, then the confession itself would be invalid and, I think, sacrilegious. 

[zabbazooey]

What if I firmly intend not to have premarital sex, go to confession, but still live with him? And avoid the near occasion of sin by sleeping separate until the big day? We're legally tied into this place, and we live together at dad's at the moment. 

 

Sorry to split hairs, I am just genuinely curious.

[Nihil Obstat]

What if I firmly intend not to have premarital sex, go to confession, but still live with him? And avoid the near occasion of sin by sleeping separate until the big day? We're legally tied into this place, and we live together at dad's at the moment. 

 

Sorry to split hairs, I am just genuinely curious.

That is... probably beyond any of our abilities to answer. Some would probably call that a near occasion of sin. Best to talk to a priest about it. A priest will give better advice.