Reconciling Personal Beliefs With Church Teaching

[Basilisa Marie]

Like Nihil said, if you believe that Christ is God, and he founded the Catholic Church, we can go from there.  That's the most important and fundamental question.  And like eagle said, if you can, try to find a good priest to meet with.  

 

As to some of the others...

 

Do you believe we should be working to end the factors that make women feel like they "must" choose an abortion?  Almost every woman I have talked to made that "choice" because she didn't feel like she had a true choice.  Personally, I don't think making abortion illegal is going to do squat to reduce the number of abortions.  Support for single mothers, better maternity care, and paternal responsibility are going to do a lot more for it.  Because we don't know when the soul is joined with the body during pregnancy (conception? implantation? when the mother first feels movement?), we are forced to take the position that life starts at conception. It's the safest answer, on that front.  And if it has a soul, it's a person.  Sure, the circumstances under which that person came into being can be the most traumatic and terrible imaginable...but that's the fault of evil people and the serious shortcomings of our society and culture; none of us are responsible for how we came into being. Punish the rapist for rape.  Punish society for refusing to support the woman through the trauma and for not giving her the material and immaterial support she needs to work towards becoming whole again. 

 

Lots of Catholics believe the government should just stay out of marriage in general.   Let marriage be what it's meant to be - a religious sacramental union.  If two people want special legal rights with deference to the other, make them sign a legal contract to get those rights.  

 

There's a lot of debate as to the morality of marijuana.  It's a grey area as far as official Church teaching.  So there's nothing inherently wrong with you being for moderate legal pot use.  

Edited January 28, 2013 by Basilisa Marie

[zabbazooey]

Well, when I was a devout Catholic, I was going to church every Sunday, Adoration twice a week, confession often, prayed the rosary every single day. And I was quite happy! I protested on the street against abortion in my hometown, etc. I was on the fence about religious life, and around the same time I moved to Minneapolis which is quite liberal. I was very impressionable, trying to figure out who I was, so I kind of evolved into an atheistic liberal over the years.

 

I guess my point is, I was truly content as a devout Catholic when I was discerning. So in love with my faith, I loved going to adoration. My favorite part about Catholicism isn't the culture, or whatever, because I never really 'belonged' at church (no youth groups or the like), but it was the Eucharist. I truly loved that when I, in good conscience, took part in the Sacrament that I was consuming His body. It was a surreal experience.

 

The abortion issue, I am more or less on the fence on. I know the horrors of it, I've seen the fetal pictures, so my views on that are already evolving. Some of it is, the candidates I like and I think would do the most good or have the most benefit for society are pro-choice. (Obama, sorry guys, I like him, deal with it lol :) ) Regardless of the pro-life/pro-choice issue, I voted for him over Romney (who wasn't very pro-life to begin with) BUT THAT IS A DISCUSSION FOR ANOTHER THREAD!!! I don't want to get into party politics right now, please :)

 

B Marie - I guess that is more or less where I stand. I see a lot of pro-lifers (not here) as more "pro birth" than pro life. i wish there were more services or support out there for vulnerable pregnant women. I feel like some of the movement only cares until the fetus is born, then boom, mom's on her own, gee why is she on government assistance? She should be independent! Etc.

 

And it's not that I think the RC church should recognize gay marriage or that it's a GOOD thing, I just think those couples should have the same legal rights such as spousal benefits when they die (like in the military), tax stuff, etc. Just because they are gay doesn't mean they should be treated like second class citizens. The churches don't have to validate gay marriage or approve of it, or recognize it. I just think the government should let them be treated like another couple who signed the same legally binding agreement my fiance and I are about to sign. This one is tough because, like I said, my cousin is gay and my fiance's uncle is gay too.

 

And what about the birth control issue? Could I ever get a dispensation or something? Like I said, my bipolar disorder is pretty severe without the proper medication and I am sure I would have to be hospitalized and I can't go down that road again. I have been stable for quite some time thanks to lithium. It wouldn't be good for me or baby to be med free and pregnant. I am really not trying to make excuses.

 

I appreciate all of your responses, I love PM, and I knew there was a reason I always come back, even though we don't always agree :D

Edited January 28, 2013 by zabbazooey

[EmilyAnn]

And it's not that I think the RC church should recognize gay marriage or that it's a GOOD thing, I just think those couples should have the same legal rights such as spousal benefits when they die (like in the military), tax stuff, etc. Just because they are gay doesn't mean they should be treated like second class citizens. The churches don't have to validate gay marriage or approve of it, or recognize it. I just think the government should let them be treated like another couple who signed the same legally binding agreement my fiance and I are about to sign. This one is tough because, like I said, my cousin is gay and my fiance's uncle is gay too.

 

Marriage is not a "legally binding agreement". That is where your problem is. Marriage is a SACRAMENT. In marriage you are bound in the eyes of GOD, not in the eyes of the state. It's more than just a piece of paper. It is a covenant in the eyes of the Lord. You need to understand what marriage truly is. 

[Lil Red]

zz - there is much i would like to say this morning, but i'm finding that my thoughts aren't totally cohesive. as far as party politics goes, I would suggest checking out Catholic Libertarians for a diversity in Catholic political thought.

 

one thing I feel compelled to say this morning: being Catholic is more than voting for the "right" party or the "right" candidate. We put our faith first, before politics, and sometimes that includes not voting for either party.

 

as always, you are phamily, and we're happy to have you here. i'd encourage you to start your prayer life again (however you feel comfortable doing so), before you start delving into your issues too deeply, so that your heart may be open and fertile ground for the Holy Spirit. :)

[zabbazooey]

Typing on my phone so bear with me...

Yes I know marriage is a sacrament. When I speak of gay rights, I'm talking about the secular, government involved portion where you do sign a legal piece of paper. That is what I am talking about. When I'm not typing up papers for school, I kinda let grammar and cohesiveness go out the window, lol! My fiancé and I aren't getting married in a church, but nevertheless it is a sacred bond to me.

I think I will seek out adoration or something. I need to get out of the house, with no distractions, to think and pray. I'll have to look for one where I live now, have no idea.

Lil Red, you're right. I have a huge issue with the Republican Party for many reasons, and there are other options.

[Basilisa Marie]

And what about the birth control issue? Could I ever get a dispensation or something? Like I said, my bipolar disorder is pretty severe without the proper medication and I am sure I would have to be hospitalized and I can't go down that road again. I have been stable for quite some time thanks to lithium. It wouldn't be good for me or baby to be med free and pregnant. I am really not trying to make excuses.

 

Since you're not using the pill as a medication for reproductive issues, I don't think you'd be able to get a dispensation.  Have you ever looked into the mechanics of natural family planning?  It takes discipline, practice, and you have to "abstain" more than you would if you're on the pill.  But it does work.  There are different versions of it that monitor different bodily signs, and depending on your body and what you're comfortable with.  

[CatherineM]

In a perfect world, everyone would be Catholic, and follow all the rules. I don't live in a perfect world. When I was young, and thought I knew everything, and was invincible, I believed stuff that I don't now. The older I've gotten, and the more of life I've experienced, have shown me how much my parents actually knew.

Cafeteria Catholics irritate me, probably because I was one once. I do understand about your meds and fear of getting pregnant because I deal with bipolars and schizophrenics every day. Bottom line is that if you were my kid, I'd rather you were in church, but questioning, than outside church. As you get older, and Truth is slowly revealed to you, your understanding of things will evolve.

When your ideals start to get shaken by learning the reality of life, you need the Church there to catch you. My two suggestions are to come back and get your marriage situation fixed. You can attend mass and not receive communion. You can feel the Spirit, engage with the community, hear the readings and homilies, yet show your disagreement by not approaching the altar.

My Dad did that. He had automatic grounds for annulment but refused to go through it. He stood proud not receiving as a personal statement that he thought the Church's stand on divorce was stupid. That and he was just extremely stubborn. There is also something to be said for AA's philosophy to fake it until you feel it. You're not going to learn the beauty of the truth of the faith outside wandering around. Come inside.

[carmenchristi]

Prayers for you. You can always start going back to mass (without receiving communion) and to adoration and ask The Lord to help you in your desire/struggle.

As far as the dispensation for birth control that someone had mentioned: no, there is no dispensation in your case. The cases in which birth control can be used is when it is used directly to treat a medical issue. That is, the actual birth control pill is used for its medical properties where the prevention of conception is not intended. Even in this case, while taking the medication a person can not be sexually active. But there are people on here who can explain better than I. That said, NFP is highly effective. There too, others can explain better.

[zabbazooey]

Since you're not using the pill as a medication for reproductive issues, I don't think you'd be able to get a dispensation. Have you ever looked into the mechanics of natural family planning? It takes discipline, practice, and you have to "abstain" more than you would if you're on the pill. But it does work. There are different versions of it that monitor different bodily signs, and depending on your body and what you're comfortable with.

Thanks :) I have an additional question. Lithium is a quite toxic med, and if there's a possibility you want to become pregnant or if you could become pregnant, you're supposed to stop lithium (with dr guidance) as it stays in your system a while. I have to take blood tests every 6 months just to make sure it's not toxic to me! If a fetus is growing and I'm in the early stages, not knowing that I am with child, the medication could be very bad for it. Plus I have other prescriptions I take too that are awful for expecting mothers and their babies. Wouldn't that be worse? I'm just confused.

I know NFP isn't a method of birth control, I do not know the exact specifics. But I also would feel awful getting pregnant unexpectedly and being afraid my baby would have bad birth defects.


Edit: wanted to add that my psych doctor in the hospital a loooong time ago prescribed birth control to all the women on these kinds of meds for this very reason. It has been recommended that I need to plan out pregnancies if I wanted children. So just genuinely curious here. Edited January 28, 2013 by zabbazooey

[Aloysius]

the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.  the point you have to find yourself at to justify returning is not being 100% intellectually convinced of a cognitive ideology, but having the divine gift of faith that gives you the capability to accept grace, believing in Jesus and His Church, all of which inspires in you the type of intellectual humility that allows you to assent to the Church even when you don't understand it completely or intellectually agree with it totally, an intellectual humility that allows you to admit that you may be wrong coupled with a faith and trust in Christ's Church that inspires you not to pridefully stand against her but to constantly engage in a dialogue with her seeking to conform yourself to Christ more and more each day.  Having the firm purpose to conform yourself to Christ and acknowledging the authority of His Church is what you need to have... if you maintain some intellectual disagreements, your faith should inspire you to continually try to work them out.  

 

as a baptized Catholic daughter of God who believes those things contrary to the Church's moral teaching, what you CAN do is come home to the Church while continuing to question those things to try to understand them, with the firm purpose to conform yourself to the will of Christ whatever that may be (even if you are not yet convinced that those things are the will of Christ, you simply need to be convinced that this is His Church and have faith and trust in Him and His Church, when it comes to the moral issues that are directly related to your practices you should consult a priest and accept the priest's guidance about when/if you can return to the sacraments, and if you're not ready you can at least begin the journey towards being ready with the guidance of a trusted priest)... what you SHOULDN'T do is enter the Church and promote those positions as acceptable Catholic positions, that's when it'd become hypocritical and wrong, and if you were seeking to do that I'd advise that you're not really at the point where you have that gift of faith, that you still have to seek out the grace that would give you humility... sincerely seeking with intellectual humility is one thing, something you seem to be exhibiting to some degree here IMO, but if that became an obstinate refusal to assent, it'd be quite another.

 

the moral issues are the biggest problems, when it comes to the political issues I would beg you not to let those get in the way.  some of the current political rhetoric that divides the body of Christ is so senseless, that's not to say that you'd be right or in line with Catholic teaching if you voted actively for gay marriage or abortion especially, that's obviously an issue and a problem and not in line with Church  teaching and it's another thing you should be engaged in with the Church with a foundation of intellectual humility (but you do NOT have to be engaged with the Republican Party on that, you strongly assert a full disagreement with any of the political lunatics that you want haha), but it by no means should preclude you from returning to Christ when it's just political opinions among the muddled and confused twisted world of ridiculous modern nation-state politics.  political issues should get in the way of your returning to the Church almost as much as your position on whether Unicorns should be allowed to marry Leprechauns IMO.  the Church is something much more significant than just a political voting block.

 

TL;DR, don't think you have to be at the destination before you take the first step.  :smokey:

[Basilisa Marie]

Thanks :) I have an additional question. Lithium is a quite toxic med, and if there's a possibility you want to become pregnant or if you could become pregnant, you're supposed to stop lithium (with dr guidance) as it stays in your system a while. I have to take blood tests every 6 months just to make sure it's not toxic to me! If a fetus is growing and I'm in the early stages, not knowing that I am with child, the medication could be very bad for it. Plus I have other prescriptions I take too that are awful for expecting mothers and their babies. Wouldn't that be worse? I'm just confused.

I know NFP isn't a method of birth control, I do not know the exact specifics. But I also would feel awful getting pregnant unexpectedly and being afraid my baby would have bad birth defects.


Edit: wanted to add that my psych doctor in the hospital a loooong time ago prescribed birth control to all the women on these kinds of meds for this very reason. It has been recommended that I need to plan out pregnancies if I wanted children. So just genuinely curious here.

 

Well, to that I'd say that the Church believes that having life, no matter how poor the quality, is always better than not having life.  I know it sounds weird, especially when we're talking about very real pain and hardship.  But the Church refuses to measure the worth of someone's life by what we would call "quality."  Given your circumstance, you'd probably have to be extra careful about keeping track of your fertility if you did decide to use NFP.  The thing with NFP is that if you're careful and consistent, taking the time to learn about your body and be willing to abstain until you get comfortable with it, it is just as effective as any version of the pill.  Like I said, it's harder, but it can work.  


And I'd echo what other have said about coming back - if you feel called, and believe it's the Church founded by Christ, then it'd probably be a good idea to start coming to mass regularly, just not going up to receive communion.  :)  

[BigJon16]

Whenever I get shaky about a certain moral teaching of the Church, I remind myself to do something quite simple. "Render unto Rome" is what I tell myself.

What's that one Chesterton quote? "A catholic is a person who has plucked up enough courage to face the incredible and inconceivable idea that something else may be wiser than he is."

It comes to a point where I realize that no matter how I feel about an issue, it comes down to what the Church teaches me as what is right and what is wrong. That's not because I'm brainwashed or can't think for myself, but because I love Christ and thus love his bride, and will do whatever she tells me. I know that the chair of Peter holds the "keys to the kingdom", and that I'm just the poor sinner for whom Christ hung on a cross.

Sometimes we get too caught up in our "feelings" and we forget that emotions cannot shape moral decisions. Murder is wrong, even if I'm really mad at that guy who just cut me off on the freeway.

[PhuturePriest]

Whenever I get shaky about a certain moral teaching of the Church, I remind myself to do something quite simple. "Render unto Rome" is what I tell myself.

What's that one Chesterton quote? "A catholic is a person who has plucked up enough courage to face the incredible and inconceivable idea that something else may be wiser than he is."

It comes to a point where I realize that no matter how I feel about an issue, it comes down to what the Church teaches me as what is right and what is wrong. That's not because I'm brainwashed or can't think for myself, but because I love Christ and thus love his bride, and will do whatever she tells me. I know that the chair of Peter holds the "keys to the kingdom", and that I'm just the poor sinner for whom Christ hung on a cross.

Sometimes we get too caught up in our "feelings" and we forget that emotions cannot shape moral decisions. Murder is wrong, even if I'm really mad at that guy who just cut me off on the freeway.

 

I was with you until you mentioned not murdering that guy that cut you off on the freeway.

[Roamin Catholic]

Thanks :) I have an additional question. Lithium is a quite toxic med, and if there's a possibility you want to become pregnant or if you could become pregnant, you're supposed to stop lithium (with dr guidance) as it stays in your system a while. I have to take blood tests every 6 months just to make sure it's not toxic to me! If a fetus is growing and I'm in the early stages, not knowing that I am with child, the medication could be very bad for it. Plus I have other prescriptions I take too that are awful for expecting mothers and their babies. Wouldn't that be worse? I'm just confused.

I know NFP isn't a method of birth control, I do not know the exact specifics. But I also would feel awful getting pregnant unexpectedly and being afraid my baby would have bad birth defects.


Edit: wanted to add that my psych doctor in the hospital a loooong time ago prescribed birth control to all the women on these kinds of meds for this very reason. It has been recommended that I need to plan out pregnancies if I wanted children. So just genuinely curious here.

 

 

In your case, I'd actually say that NFP is the safest for you. 

 

Most NFP is 99% effective when the rules are followed. (Which is the key, most people who knock it, didn't follow the rules)

Condoms 90% 

Birth Control 93% 

(Full disclosure; I do realize that different studies give different numbers for each of these, but NFP is usually around 98-99% from what I've read)

 

 

I actually have some experience with this. (well, the life of mom and baby being at risk if pregnancy were to occur) 

 

When my wife and I first got married, it was discovered that she had a hole in her heart. If she had gotten pregnant, she would have most likely died and not carried the child to term. So what did we do? We used NFP (Billings Ovulation Method, really simple to use) followed the rules for the year we needed to until the heart was fixed. During this time I like to think that we still had a healthy sexual relationship. 

 

NFP works the best. The key though is that both spouses need to be on board with it. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Plus hormonal birth control is potentially abortifacient.