Reconciling Personal Beliefs With Church Teaching

[zabbazooey]

(long)

 

Okay, so as some of the 'veteran' PM-ers know, I was once a devout Catholic, discerning religious life a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I kind of got scared about religious life and am not really eligible anyways, so I veered off in the other direction. 

 

I dove into Mormonism for a while (lulz), and they smothered me to death and I left. Plus I didn't like a lot of the theology, giving a mandatory 10% tithe to be temple worthy, the pressure to baptize my now fiance, 4-5 hours of church, bleh! I did something bad, I faked a temple recommend interview to go on a church trip to Nauvoo and get inside the temple. The temple was sooo secretive and mysterious, I couldn't afford the 10% tithe, so I lied to get in. Well, that was it for me. After that trip, I never went back to any church (September 2011)

 

White jumpsuits, genders separated, being baptized for dead people in a humongous font up to my waist, it just screams CULT CULT CULT. 

 

After that, I did a lot of soul searching, and kind of figured I was an atheist. I had no proof, I could find no religion that suited me. I found religion to be restrictive, the bible to be contradictory, I rejected all of it.

 

All along, there have been inklings to go back to church, not just any church. The Catholic church. Even with my doubt in God's existence, it's always tugged at my heartstrings. Hence why I still lurk/post on PM quite a bit. (mostly lurk nowadays)

 

I've been toying with the idea of going back to Church (my fiance is a very lapsed Catholic as well, although he hates Mass) but my liberal beliefs get in the way. Here are some things I have trouble with: (and I am not thinking my views are superior right now, I am really trying to figure this out, so bear with me)

 

• I am cohabiting before marriage (but, we are getting married in May, ceremony in July) and I don't see much wrong with pre-marital anything. (no disrespect to anyone) My fiance and I have been together nearly 4 years.
• I use birth control, am reluctant to use NFP as I have bipolar disorder, pretty bad. If I got pregnant, I am certain I would have to be hospitalized because I take lithium and could NOT go without it for 9 months. Have tried all other mood stabilizers, like Lamictal which is safe in utero, and they aren't enough. Also, we are broke, I am going to school and we absolutely could not afford a child right now.
• I fully support gay rights. I understand that being gay is intrinsically disordered according to Church teaching, but I believe the government should grant full legal rights to these couples. Obviously churches have jurisdiction over letting gay couples marry in their respective churches. My cousin is a lesbian, so this is something I have a hard time with.
• I am pro-choice. NOT pro abortion. I don't like abortion, I don't think I could ever, ever do such a thing. But at the same time, I want the option available to all women. I don't agree with it, but my personal religious or whatever it is beliefs should not get in the way of a woman and her body. Especially in cases of life of the mother, incest, and rape.
• This is silly to mention, but I support the legalization and recreational use of marijuana. In moderation, not toke up all day every day sort of thing. Kind of like winding down the day with a glass of wine. I don't do any of that now because of school, but I know the church is against use of mind altering substances.

I still love the church, very much so. I love the rich tradition, the history, adoration (I miss that), the Eucharist, etc. I just have a hard time with these issues. I feel like if I went back to church, I would be forcing myself to live a life I'd be absolutely unhappy with. I don't think I could ever advocate against gay rights, etc etc. Am I just trying to put a square peg in a round hole? Or should I keep trying to figure out these inklings that for some reason, keep drawing me back to religion and the Church in particular?

 

I will say -- I have NOOOO desire to be a Mormon, evangelical, or any other Christian denomination. Tried em all, don't like em.

 

My fiance is kind of liberal. He is more of a live-and-let-live person. He considers himself an agnostic. He has been with me through this whole rollercoaster ride, God bless his soul. He isn't against the Catholic church, he just doesn't like it to 'drag' on and dislikes attending Mass. He's more "spiritual than religious" - you might say.

 

Any way I can start tackling this? It seems insurmountable but I am willing to change.

[Luigi]

Are you serious? 

 

 

You're not joking? 

 

 

You're not just trying to engage Catholics in a pointless might-as-well-beat-my-head-against-a-brick-wall conversation for the fun of it? 

[zabbazooey]

I may have engaged in debates in the past, but I assure you, I am not a troll...

I will say, growing up in a non-religious family and with bp disorder, religion is something I've always had a constant struggle with. I've been at PM for almost 8 years in July, I'm really not trying to bait :)

[Luigi]

I'm just trying to figure this out... because it sounds so obviously conflicted on the surface....

 

Would you join the NRA even though you think guns should be banned? Or vice versa? 

Would you enroll in a university even though you don't think learning ought to be paid for and graded?

Would you volunteer with an environmental group even though you think this global warming stuff is a lot of hooey? 

I just don't get it. 

 

If you're drawn to the Church, learn about its beliefs (the 'why' as well as the 'what'). You don't have to be perfect to be an active Catholic, but you do have to at least make an effort to agree with the basic tenets of the faith. 

 

If you just like the cultural affiliations - the smells & bells, the pretty vestments, the uniforms & fish fries, the stylish habits & the charming saints names, something to do on Sunday morning - join the Episcopalians.  

[CatherineM]

Unfortunately, you hold similar beliefs to lots of Carholics.

[zabbazooey]

OK so I've never encountered anyone encouraging to explore another denomination on here.

 

I like the church because it has been around since Christ, there's something about the fact it's been around for over 2000 years that has to be right. I've read the article "Do you know when your religion was established?" and that's what strikes me about the Church.

 

Look, my opinions have evolved from extremely conservative to liberal in about 4 years. I'm just trying to reconcile my messed up head/beliefs with whatever keeps drawing me back to the church.

 

It's not just the incense, etc. It's the whole package. I know the beliefs of the church, I know the teachings. I'm just trying to wrap my head around them and wonder how I can evolve? The basic tenets of the faith, it's just so hard for me. I guess I was just wondering if anyone else here was in a similar situation, what they did differently, or something.

 

I guess the biggest thing is the birth control issue, especially due to my medical history. I understand why the church teaches what it does about contraceptives, but it could be detrimental to my health if I was pregnant. We are discussing adoption in the future (way down the road)

[Anastasia13]

(long)

I am cohabiting before marriage (but, we are getting married in May, ceremony in July) and I don't see much wrong with pre-marital anything. (no disrespect to anyone) My fiance and I have been together nearly 4 years.

 

I use birth control, am reluctant to use NFP as I have bipolar disorder, pretty bad. If I got pregnant, I am certain I would have to be hospitalized because I take lithium and could NOT go without it for 9 months. Have tried all other mood stabilizers, like Lamictal which is safe in utero, and they aren't enough. Also, we are broke, I am going to school and we absolutely could not afford a child right now.

 

That's great that you are getting married. I would rather see people getting married rather than simply cohabiting (plus I'm honestly happy you found someone you love and who loves you, so congrats!). I am curious why you don't see a problem with not waiting until marriage, or what you think are reasons presented against it?  I've run into a few reasons over the last couple of years that go beyond simply saying scripture and church says don't do it and looks also at the social and emotional impact on a person.  I posted many of these in the dating vs. courtship thread recently.

 

With regard to birth control, no birth control is perfect.Condoms are only 90-something percent effective. I used to go to a church with a woman who had one of those implanted hormone birth control things. She still got pregnant. That is one thing to consider when the only reason to use it is that you cannot afford a child. I'm sure others can give statistics on how NFP works and there may be guidance available to help use this method effectively. I just read an article on bipolar medication including lithium. It may not be as dangerous to the child as first thought, but in your case with the bipolar medication, you might talk to a priest (or is it bishop or something?). There are ways to get some kind of permission if it is for a medical reason provided it is severe enough, I think.

[zabbazooey]

Unfortunately, you hold similar beliefs to lots of Carholics.

 

See, and this is my issue. I don't want to be Catholic unless I can commit to the whole thing. That's the thing I have a problem with, with religion. I don't want to be a cherry picker. I either want to go all in and be the best Catholic/etc I can be, or I'd rather be nothing. I don't want to be a hypocrite. I don't want to be a pro-choice, liberal cafeteria Catholic/Christian. I see so much beauty in the Church and Christianity, and I do feel like I belong in church, somehow, somewhere. But until I figure it out I would rather be nothing than a half-hearted believer.

 

Sorry if I don't make sense. Long day, lol :)

[Anastasia13]

I'm just trying to figure this out... because it sounds so obviously conflicted on the surface....

 

Would you join the NRA even though you think guns should be banned? Or vice versa? 

Would you enroll in a university even though you don't think learning ought to be paid for and graded?

Would you volunteer with an environmental group even though you think this global warming stuff is a lot of hooey? 

I just don't get it. 

 

If you're drawn to the Church, learn about its beliefs (the 'why' as well as the 'what'). You don't have to be perfect to be an active Catholic, but you do have to at least make an effort to agree with the basic tenets of the faith. 

 

If you just like the cultural affiliations - the smells & bells, the pretty vestments, the uniforms & fish fries, the stylish habits & the charming saints names, something to do on Sunday morning - join the Episcopalians.  

 

I think we should give her a chance. There is a lot more to being Catholic than what she mentioned here.  Maybe she needs to interact with the ideas in discussion.

[Anastasia13]

See, and this is my issue. I don't want to be Catholic unless I can commit to the whole thing. That's the thing I have a problem with, with religion. I don't want to be a cherry picker. I either want to go all in and be the best Catholic/etc I can be, or I'd rather be nothing. I don't want to be a hypocrite. I don't want to be a pro-choice, liberal cafeteria Catholic/Christian. I see so much beauty in the Church and Christianity, and I do feel like I belong in church, somehow, somewhere. But until I figure it out I would rather be nothing than a half-hearted believer.

 

Sorry if I don't make sense. Long day, lol :)

 

You make enough sense. You have no idea the joy it brings me to see you try to work this out instead of just staying away.  I am glad that you do not want to be lukewarm, and I hope this site and whatever you need will be there to help you find the answers you need.

[4588686]

Obey me.  I will give meaning to your life.  

[Anastasia13]

Obey me.  I will give meaning to your life.  

 

Somehow, I don't think that http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Guide-Semantics-Oxford-Linguistics/dp/0199696624/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1359354919&sr=8-9&keywords=meaning Meaning: A Slim Guide to Semantics (Oxford Linguistics) by Paul Elbourne is what she is looking for.

[Kateri89]

Well I've read through all the responses to the original post but it seems no one has actually answered any of the specific questions.  I'll start by saying this: When I was in high school I would've described myself as pro-choice, supportive of gay marriage, birth control, etc.  In the last 10 years, I've undergone the exact opposite transition as you zabbazooey.  The more in depth I studied Church teachings and beliefs, the more I fell in love with it.  The thing is, when I really researched the "why" for these issues you mentioned, the teachings make sense.  They're certainly not easy at first but don't try to rush yourself.  My advice is to start one issue at a time.

 

Since many here (myself included) were just at the March for Life the other day, I'd start with the abortion debate.  The way I feel is that all the rest of the issues you mentioned are null and void without the very first right to life.  The way you described your view on it is the way many Catholics and non-Catholic Christians do as well. The question I pose is this: If you personally oppose abortion, there must be a reason you find it wrong.  Why would you personally never have an abortion? If it isn't murder, then there really should be no reason to oppose it, even personally.  (I keep saying "personally" on purpose).  If it is murder, then it isn't simply a religious belief but a basic moral code that our society adheres to (in general).  During the march for life, I saw video footage of a fetus which appeared to still be first trimester, and it had already been through an abortion procedure but was still moving outside the womb.  It was in the process of dying and I was sick to my stomach.  Any biology textbook will affirm that life begins at conception so any destruction after conception is technically murder.  There are so many arguments as to when it is okay to have an abortion based on viability, ability to feel pain, etc. but these are all red herrings because we even have laws against abuse of corpses.  So the lack of ability to feel pain is no excuse for abuse/cruelty.  (Incidentally, some pro-life doctors have argued that the ability to feel pain can start as early as 8 weeks)

 

As far as rape or incest, consider this possibility: A woman has sex with her husband and the next day is raped.  She takes a pregnancy test as soon as possible and finds out it's positive.  She goes to the doctor for genetic testing to determine paternity and is told that her husband is the father.  She continues with the pregnancy and has the baby.  Afterwards, the doctor's office calls to tell her they made a mistake and gave her the wrong results.  Her husband is NOT the father, rather the rapist is.  At that point in time should she be allowed to kill the infant?  If you would answer no, why not?

 

It all boils down to two essential questions: 1)When does life begin? (which I mentioned) 2) Is it ever okay to take someone else's life?

 

I could go on for forever when it comes to the abortion debate but I think my response is way too long already  :hehe2:   I just want to thank you for your sincerity in discerning the truth and I will pray for you, you can count on that!  If you'd like to PM me and chat, I'd love to talk!

[Nihil Obstat]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that He established the Catholic Church?

 

Take that as rhetorical if you like, either way.

What I mean is that this should be the very first question. All your issues with Church teachings are irrelevant if you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. And, if you do believe that He is God and He established the Church, then we start looking at specific teachings.

 

Are you attracted to the Church again because it is comfortable, or because you like it culturally, or are you feeling a pull because of Faith?

 

I do not mean to sound aggressive, by the way. :) I cannot tell from your posts how you feel about this, but I do think it should be the very first question we deal with.

[eagle_eye222001]

See, and this is my issue. I don't want to be Catholic unless I can commit to the whole thing. That's the thing I have a problem with, with religion. I don't want to be a cherry picker. I either want to go all in and be the best Catholic/etc I can be, or I'd rather be nothing. I don't want to be a hypocrite. I don't want to be a pro-choice, liberal cafeteria Catholic/Christian. I see so much beauty in the Church and Christianity, and I do feel like I belong in church, somehow, somewhere. But until I figure it out I would rather be nothing than a half-hearted believer.

 

Sorry if I don't make sense. Long day, lol :)

 

I understand.

 

 

I could write for hours and post the world.....but I will keep my suggestions and comments brief.

 

Have you talked with a good priest lately?  If not, try to find one.  Online correspondence only goes so far, and while PM can suffice for some things, it cannot make it all.

 

With respect to all the moral issues, there is a lot to deal with.  I will offer a few suggestions.

 

For abortion, I recommend watching the documentary "180."  Should be free and it should be online somewhere.  Perhaps you may want to start a new thread to discuss what you thought of it.  Perhaps not.  I only suggest.  Part of it deals with the stance you hold and it has some good things to say about that.

 

Don't try to deal with all the moral issues at once.  In fact, only deal with one at a time.  Trying to blitz through all this would be a bad idea.  All the great people who convert (or even revert) to the faith do so by looking at one issue at a time and taking their time to work and pray through everything.

 

If you are not already doing so, pray.  It doesn't have to be much....or fancy.  But find some point in the day to spend in prayer....like 5 minutes or some reasonable amount that is a reasonable goal.  You can't expect to get anywhere without a decent prayer life.

 

 

 

God bless