Leaving The Sacred United States Is Horrible, Citizen

[ardillacid]

It's secede. How much did you pay for your degree?

[4588686]

the gubment

 

No it doesn't.  There is nothing in the constitution  which the states entered into, which says that they have a right to leave.  

 

 

you like that 2% tax increase on yer paystub?  and thats just to fund a program that will be bankrupt shortly and from which you will see zero payout when you try to retire

 

No, I don't.  But I've grown up around poverty and know that social security checks keep a lot of seniors out of abject poverty.  Even if I'm not benefiting from it or won't benefit from it I don't mind helping some old people have some decent last few years.  

It's secede. How much did you pay for your degree?

 

Meh

[Socrates]

I'm not much of a fan of Mark Shea.  Sadly, he's become more of a left-wing political apologist than a Catholic apologist.

[Nihil Obstat]

I agree with him on war and torture, and if I remember correctly he said some rather intelligent things during the Obamney idiocy, but the way he is carrying on in these posts is really shaking any good will I might have had towards him.

[4588686]

I'm not much of a fan of Mark Shea. Sadly, he's become more of a left-wing political apologist than a Catholic apologist.

That's true. The Church has a long and distinguished history of torture and it is a shame that weak willed liberal Catholics want to break from that illustrious past.

[Winchester]

No it doesn't.  There is nothing in the constitution  which the states entered into, which says that they have a right to leave.

Any powers not delegated to the Feds remain with the states, or the people--who are the sovereigns. The Constitution never forbade the right to secede, nor did it grant the Federal government the right to suppress secession. We're not going to agree. I used to believe the nationalist line. I cheered the Heller decision, for instance. It took a lot of arguing and fighting, but I abandoned that interpretation of the Constitution. You're in the company of the NRA, though. Congrats. Edited January 26, 2013 by Winchester

[4588686]

Any powers not delegated to the Feds remain with the states, or the people--who are the sovereigns. The Constitution never forbade the right to secede, nor did it grant the Federal government the right to suppress secession. We're not going to agree. I used to believe the nationalist line. I cheered the Heller decision, for instance. It took a lot of arguing and fighting, but I abandoned that interpretation of the Constitution. You're in the company of the NRA, though. Congrats.

It actually does. Times of rebellion are one of the few instances when the Constitution permits the federal government to suspend the writ of habeus corpus.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Secession is not rebellion.   It's leaving.

[4588686]

Secession is not rebellion. It's leaving.

The constitution doesn't say what is a rebellion or what makes a planned secession legal or illegal. Does it need to be a simple majority or a super majority? That isn't just an internal state matter since all state residents are citizens of the United States and if they do not assent to their state leaving they would be forced to either move or be made citizens of another government against their will. So do the other states need to assent or does the federal government? Some compromise could probably be worked out is a substantial majority of a state wanted to leave but some portion just deciding to leave without going through any sort of legal process would be a rebellion.

[Nihil Obstat]

The constitution doesn't say what is a rebellion or what makes a planned secession legal or illegal. Does it need to be a simple majority or a super majority? That isn't just an internal state matter since all state residents are citizens of the United States and if they do not assent to their state leaving they would be forced to either move or be made citizens of another government against their will. So do the other states need to assent or does the federal government? Some compromise could probably be worked out is a substantial majority of a state wanted to leave but some portion just deciding to leave without going through any sort of legal process would be a rebellion.

If they do not like it, they are free to leave. :|

[4588686]

If they do not like it, they are free to leave. :|

I would hope so. And but why couldn't they just remain part of the US? If states and secede then why can't counties remain? What would be the units of division. Can counties secede? Why is it only states? I think that long term regionalization of the US could be a positive thing but its not as simple a question as people are pretending. And most of the current proposals would be tantamount to rebellion, even of lip service is given to the idea of peaceful secession

[Aloysius]

State legislatures ratified the Constitution, prior to their ratification of the Constitution they were sovereign over their own territory (to varying degrees depending on the state in question, certainly the 13 colonies and Texas are great examples of this... something like Alaska I'm not sure about the history of their pre-US legislature prior to their ratification of the Constitution after the purchase of that territory at some point, I'd have to look it up, but prior to the ratification of the constitution no matter how short or how long they are established as an authoritative body, otherwise it would mean nothing for them to ratify the constitution).  note that while it only required 9 states to ratify in order to put the constitution into effect, if only 9 had ratified it would have only been in effect within those 9 states, as per Article VII.

 

A state legislature can rescind its ratification of the Constitution based upon the same criteria under which they originally ratified it.  Nothing in the Constitution forbids that, the entire authority of the Constitution rests upon its ratification within a states' legislature so the legislature has every right and ability to rescind that ratification and return to authority over the territory that elected it.  that's why the state boundaries would definitely be crucial in any lawful secession.

 

counties wouldn't really have a standing as ever having had any sovereignty on their own, so unlike a state a county government that wanted to assert independence would have to work for recognition the way anything else does, not ever having had it for themselves to begin with.  presumably if a state seceded, a county government could get together and ratify the constitution itself and therefore request the Federal government to admit them as a state.  sadly it's hard to imagine these kinds of things being conducted peacefully, but they SHOULD be in an ideal world that actually respected the processes of the Republican forms of government we are supposed to have.  there should be able to be peaceful transitions of power that are meaningful in this way.

[Nihil Obstat]

I would hope so. And but why couldn't they just remain part of the US? If states and secede then why can't counties remain? What would be the units of division. Can counties secede? Why is it only states? I think that long term regionalization of the US could be a positive thing but its not as simple a question as people are pretending. And most of the current proposals would be tantamount to rebellion, even of lip service is given to the idea of peaceful secession

I am not sure, but I think that the rights of the individuals involved come first.

Personally, I would let each household secede... :|

[Aloysius]

:cyclops: the sovereign citizens and "Free Man on the land" people have the most amusing youtube videos in court in which they believe that they have basically seceded for themselves haha.  It is a guilty pleasure for me to watch these people, and though their entire legal theory (based on some loopy interpretations of law-books and completely false etymologies of words like "understand") is utterly baseless, on some level I smirk and kind of think it'd be nice if things worked a little bit more like they do in these people's fantasy worlds.  (not connecting you with these people, just pointing them out as an example if we're talking about individuals and households "seceding", these people do it rather peacefully, albeit eccentrically, but they generally land themselves with days or months of prison time out of simple traffic tickets, they're experts at talking themselves into jail when they otherwise might just get a warning lol)

 

In the real world, territorial political sovereignty exists, and I believe that within the logic of our own government, state legislatures have the right to rescind their previous ratifications of the Constitution if they wish to.  those were the political bodies that voluntarily joined the country, and nothing in that ratification made it impossible for that legislature to rescind it at some other time.  in fact, I'm not sure that it could have, a legislature cannot bind the future elected body, because all the authority one legislature has, its successor also has that same level of authority and thus can undo anything that a previous legislature enacted.  so long as state legislatures remain in authority, they hold the authority to undo the actions of the past state legislature that ratified the constitution.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Aloysius

[Nihil Obstat]

:cyclops: the sovereign citizens and "Free Man on the land" people have the most amusing youtube videos in court in which they believe that they have basically seceded for themselves haha.  It is a guilty pleasure for me to watch these people, and though their entire legal theory (based on some loopy interpretations of law-books and completely false etymologies of words like "understand") is utterly baseless, on some level I smirk and kind of think it'd be nice if things worked a little bit more like they do in these people's fantasy worlds.  (not connecting you with these people, just pointing them out as an example if we're talking about individuals and households "seceding", these people do it rather peacefully, albeit eccentrically, but they generally land themselves with days or months of prison time out of simple traffic tickets, they're experts at talking themselves into jail when they otherwise might just get a warning lol)

Only peacefully sometimes. :( People connected with that 'movement' can be rather frightening in some cases.
The police around here will not even attend calls at houses belonging to 'sovereign citizens' unless they have essentially every single unit in the district as backup. They give people who love freedom a bad name.