Preventing Conception

[dUSt]

I struggled with this same question for a long time. I would ask myself, "If both methods have the intent to prevent pregnancy, what is the difference?"

 

My "aha moment" came when I thought about HOW that prevention was occurring.

 

Condoms and birth control are artificial methods. Abstinence is natural. In other words, if one is not ready to have a baby, what should they do? Abstain from sex.

 

When a couple uses the NFP method, what are they doing to prevent a pregnancy? Abstaining from sex.

 

It is the way God intends people to not get pregnant.

[Mark]

Contraception is used when one Fornicates, sex outside of the act of mariage, for the act is for pleasure alone and not for happiness.  The sperm is stopped from reaching the egg, via a condom, spermacide etc hence there is no intent for two (man and wife) to join in communion with God to procreate.

 

Natural Family Planning is the opposite of contraception.  The marriage act of Husband and Wife is for happiness, with the communion of God to Procreate, the act is not interrupted by death to the sperm via any of the items listed prior.  This is a selfless act of union within marriage.  Man and Woman discern with God when to and when not to partake in the forbidden fruit of procreation.  Hence the marriage act is the intent for two (man and wife) to join in communion with God to Procreate.

 

That is why man leaves the comfort of his parents house to find a woman, and the two shall go forth and multiply.  As God has left man on earth to have dominion over all of his creatures, would not God also want man to have dominion over his own lust, for overpopulation was not Gods' design, as I believe.

 

What do you say?

[Nihil Obstat]

Contraception is used when one Fornicates, sex outside of the act of mariage, for the act is for pleasure alone and not for happiness.  The sperm is stopped from reaching the egg, via a condom, spermacide etc hence there is no intent for two (man and wife) to join in communion with God to procreate.

 

Natural Family Planning is the opposite of contraception.  The marriage act of Husband and Wife is for happiness, with the communion of God to Procreate, the act is not interrupted by death to the sperm via any of the items listed prior.  This is a selfless act of union within marriage.  Man and Woman discern with God when to and when not to partake in the forbidden fruit of procreation.  Hence the marriage act is the intent for two (man and wife) to join in communion with God to Procreate.

 

That is why man leaves the comfort of his parents house to find a woman, and the two shall go forth and multiply.  As God has left man on earth to have dominion over all of his creatures, would not God also want man to have dominion over his own lust, for overpopulation was not Gods' design, as I believe.

 

What do you say?

 

Couple little issues I am seeing here.

 

1- Contraception is often used (obviously illicitly) in marriage. Not just in fornication. Including by far too many Catholics. It remains gravely sinful. I am sure you know that, but the first paragraph did not seem to recognize it when you said "Contraception is used when one Fornicates, sex outside of the act of mariage[sic][...]".

2- Intercourse within marriage is not a "forbidden fruit". It is intrinsically good as long as it respects the chastity of both spouses.

[Mark]

You miss understand the difference between sex in a marriage and the MARRIAGE ACT.  The MARRIAGE ACT is the union of husband and wife in communion with God for the sole purpose of procreation.

 

Any Catholic that is married and uses contraception is fornicating and not engaging in the MARRIAGE ACT.  As the act is purely evil in intent as the married couple is aborting the child before conception, hence spilling his male seed onto the ground.  They engage in purely lustful acts and not acts of love in communion with God.

[Nihil Obstat]

You miss understand the difference between sex in a marriage and the MARRIAGE ACT.  The MARRIAGE ACT is the union of husband and wife in communion with God for the sole purpose of procreation.
 
Any Catholic that is married and uses contraception is fornicating and not engaging in the MARRIAGE ACT.  As the act is purely evil in intent as the married couple is aborting the child before conception, hence spilling his male seed onto the ground.  They engage in purely lustful acts and not acts of love in communion with God.

 
St. Thomas Aquinas writes that simple fornication "is the union of an unmarried man with an unmarried woman." You are using common terms in rather uncommon ways.

Also it is impossible to abort a child before conception, because before conception by definition a child does not exist. That does not mean that what you describe is not seriously sinful - we know that it is - but it certainly is not abortion.

 

Clearly use of contraception within marriage is a highly unchaste action. I have not at any time denied that. I simply think that you are explaining yourself in a very strange and potentially misleading fashion.

[PhuturePriest]

 
St. Thomas Aquinas writes that simple fornication "is the union of an unmarried man with an unmarried woman." You are using common terms in rather uncommon ways.

Also it is impossible to abort a child before conception, because before conception by definition a child does not exist. That does not mean that what you describe is not seriously sinful - we know that it is - but it certainly is not abortion.

 

Clearly use of contraception within marriage is a highly unchaste action. I have not at any time denied that. I simply think that you are explaining yourself in a very strange and potentially misleading fashion.

 

Yeah. Especially considering that if the Church declared the child existed before conception, that would mean we could only have sex during fertile times because otherwise it's impossible to conceive and therefore you are aborting your children. This is without even adding the more confounding variable that even when a woman is fertile, getting pregnant is still not easy and there is a high chance you still won't get pregnant.

Edited January 20, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[Nihil Obstat]

Yeah. Especially considering that if the Church declared the child existed before conception, that would mean we could only have sex during fertile times because otherwise it's impossible to conceive and therefore you are aborting your children. This is without even adding the more confounding variable that even when a woman is fertile, getting pregnant is still not easy and there is a high chance you still won't get pregnant.

 
In any case, the hypothesis of pre-existing souls was condemned definitively in the first millennium. 553, at Constantinople II. 

[sixpence]

Any Catholic that is married and uses contraception is fornicating and not engaging in the MARRIAGE ACT.  As the act is purely evil in intent as the married couple is aborting the child before conception, hence spilling his male seed onto the ground.  They engage in purely lustful acts and not acts of love in communion with God.

 

:blink: purely evil? What if the couple is unaware that contraception is immoral?  What if they intend to show love to one another, and not just seeking self pleasure?  *Please note I am not arguing for contraception at all, I am just not sure I would call it "fornication" or "pure evil"...

 

What do you mean "aborting the child before conception"? and why does abstinence not fall into this category?

 

 

edit:

 

PS- Welcome to Phatmass!!! :smile3:

Edited January 20, 2013 by sixpence

[Nihil Obstat]

I think that Mark has sacrificed theological accuracy for the sake of the strength of his rhetoric. :hehe:

It sounds lovely and bombastic and metaphysical. It just is a bit lacking in the realm of correctness.

[Mark]

I will agree that fornication is a poor choice of words, as I call any sex outside of the communion with God with out the intent of procreation fornication and will cede that word.  Pre-conception abortion is the spilling of ones seed with the intention of not procreating, ie; condoms, masturbation and act of lust(sex) that is not in communion with God with the intent to procreate.

 

Abstinence this is not as Abstinence is as follows as per Church teachings.  You might be referring to a Chaste life.  Only Chastity, a Chaste life is the refraining from sexual desires.

I only try to educate as many people use these terms as interchangeable and they are not.  A good tool is the "Theology of The Body" by Pope Jophn Paul II.

 

All of the Church teachings on these terms I will highlight in Red.

 

I will also address your "Theological accuracy statement for sake of strength and rhetoric" with what the Catholic Church teaches (those in red) and you should know as one who is in training to be a priest and I am only a learning servant of God and our Savior Lord Jesus Chris. 

 

I will also refer to the Churches teaching on the term "The Marriage Act" in the definition of the Churches teachings on contraception.  All couples in the engagement period in our Diocese are taught these truths. 

 

I will also add that I know a few young men that are seminarians that are discussing this topic as the times have changed since 1973 and the secular world is finding more ways to halt the procreation of Gods' children. I also mean no condescension in my words, as I only have a 12th grade education and I tend to use simple words or ones that others may not like, ie; using fornication instead of loveless sex.

 

I also welcome your showing me through Church Teaches,not quotes form Glorious St. Thomas, St. DeSales or any other Great and Venerable children of God, I would ike you to use actual church teachings as to where I am straying, so as not to give false witness to those that are learning the faith as I am.  I would appreciate your discussion on this if I am wrong. 

 

You will also see that the Church teaches about "Marriage Act" as I will show below under the Churches teaching on "Contraception" as per the teachings on Genesis 38 8-10 and confirmed teaching by Pope Paul as follows; In modern times the most significant document was Humanae Vitae in 1968 by Paul VI. so you will not think I took "Theological liberties" and all of these can easily be checked through Catholic references or ask your confessor(Parish Priest).

 

CHASTITY

The virtue that moderates the desire for sexual pleasure according to the principles of faith and right reason. In married people, chastity moderates the desire in conformity with their state of life; in unmarried people who wish to marry, the desire is moderated by abstention until (or unless) they get married; in those who resolve not to marry, the desire is sacrificed entirely.

Chastity and purity, modesty and decency are comparable in that they have the basic meaning of freedom from whatever is lewd or salacious. Yet they also differ. Chastity implies an opposition to the immoral in the sense of lustful or licentious. It suggests refraining from all acts or thoughts that are not in accordance with the Church's teaching about the use of one's reproductive powers. It particularly stresses restraint and an avoidance of anything that might defile or make unclean the soul because the body has not been controlled in the exercise of its most imperious passion. (Etym. Latin castus, morally pure, unstained.)

ABSTINENCE

The moral virtue that inclines a person to the moderate use of food or drink as dictated by right reason or by faith for his own moral and spiritual welfare.

As commonly understood, abstinence refers to refraining from certain kinds of food or drink and may be undertaken by a person spontaneously or it may be prescribed by ecclesiastical law, whether for the universal Church or for certain territories. Institutes of Christian perfection may also have special provisions for abstinence according to their rule of life.

 

PROCREATION

Begetting children. It is a formal term for generation and stresses the role of marital intercourse with the intention of producing offspring.

PROCREATIVE LOVE

The selfless love of husband with wife for the potential offspring God may wish to give them as the "procreation" of marital intercourse. This love is procreative because it evokes the creative act of God, who requires their co-operation to bring a new human being into the world.

 

God intended that the union of man and woman in the sacrament of marriage,while in the act of sexual relations and all decisions concerning the couple to be in communion with God, and the act of sex in the marriage sacrament is for the procreation of children, yes or no?

 

My wife and I are a strange breed as we never practiced Birth control or used contraception in our marriage, nor before as we were virgins when we married.  We made a union with the Grace of God and yes we practiced NFP (natural family planning).  We had sexual relations at all times during my wife's fertility cycle freely accepting the gift that God would will us and by his Grace give us, in communion with God in the Marriage act for the sole purpose of Procreation.  Our first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, so God did not will it.  The second pregnancy 1 year later should never should have happened as we had sexual relations in marriage 10 days prior to her ovulation (mucus discharge), and the Gynecologist said that we a married couple are so in love this can happen.  We took it that God knew we were not ready the first time but were the second time of pregnancy, He moves in mysterious ways.  We have two children, as my wife lost her Uterus as it let loose of her inner walls and fell out.  God moves in mysterious ways.

I also welcome your showing me through Church Teaches,not quotes form Glorious St. Thomas, St. DeSales or any other Great and Venerable children of God, I would ike you to use actual church teachings as to where I am straying, so as not to give false witness to those that are learning the faith as I am.  I would appreciate your discussion on this if I am wrong.

 

BIRTH CONTROL

A synonym for contraception, introduced into the vocabulary by professed contraceptionists in order to equate control of population by preventing conception through artificial means.

 

 

Should it be called I want my lust control?

 

If this is not so then why does the church teach it's faithful not to use contraception?

 

Is not the use of contraception intrinsically evil?

 

Is not Birth control, in the form of the pill, morning after, RU248, condoms etc all the halting of the procreation process, therefore the intent of the people that use birth control is to not procreate?

 

 

Does this not lead to then the aborting of a potentially fertilized fetus?

 

So I contend that if a married couple in the Catholic church uses any form of contraception, they are then aborting of a viable child, whether it be the actual fertilized egg or never fertilized because of the contraception, as the couple is outside of the "Marriage act", an act in communion with God so as to procreate.

 

I am just going by what the Church teaches us:

 

ABORTION

In Catholic morality, abortion is either direct (induced) or indirect. Direct abortion is any destruction of the product of human conception, whether before or after implantation in the womb. A direct abortion is one that is intended either as an end in itself or as a means to an end. As a willful attack on unborn human life, no matter what the motive, direct abortion is always a grave objective evil.

Indirect abortion is the foreseen but merely permitted evacuation of a fetus which cannot survive outside the womb.

he Second Vatican Council declared: "Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception," so that "abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes" (Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, IV, 51). Pope Paul VI confirmed this teaching in 1974. "Respect for human life,' he wrote, "is called for from the time that the process of generation begins. From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother. It is rather the life of a new human being with its own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already." Consequently, "divine law and natural reason exclude all right to the direct killing of an innocent human being" (Declaration on Procured Abortion, III, 12). (Etym. Latin abortivus, born prematurely, abortive; from aboriri, to miscarry.)

 

 

So I ask you again, if a married couple that is Catholic and uses any form of Contraception while being in the Marriage sacrament, are they outside of the Church teachings, outside of the Will of God?

 

If their intent is to halt the conception, they are then against the will of God and then I believe aborting the fetus as it was intended to be by the Grace of God.  If man shall spill his seed on the floor, whether it be through condoms, masturbation, pulling out or the death of the fetus(child) via any other way outside of Gods' will is this then not aborting the viable egg that was intended to be fertilized, because they had sex outside of the communion with God?  This is different than picking a time through NFP as the couple discerns with God whether the time is for them or not, as I said we just wanted a child the first time and that went bust.

 

As the church teaches on contraception, and this is where we get the use of the term "MARRIAGE ACT" a term one should know if they are a priest in training as you state you are,so here it is.

 

CONTRACEPTION

Deliberate interference with marital intercourse in order to prevent conception. It is the performance of the marriage act with the positive frustration of conception. Also called conjugal onanism, from the sin of Onan, referred to in the Bible (Genesis 38:8-10); Neo-Malthusianism from the name of the English sociologist Malthus (1766-1834); it is popularly termed birth control, where those concerned with high birthrates have come to equate contraception with population control.

The Catholic Church has forbidden contraception from earliest times, and the number of papal statements dealing with the subject indicates the Church's constant tradition. In modern times the most significant document was Humanae Vitae in 1968 by Paul VI.

 

As my wife and I teach our children that are in awe of the protestant friends, that can quote chapter and verse of the Bible, yes that appears good but can they put the verse in context, can they tell you what was prior to the verse or what was after the verse, NO.  My wife is a product of twelve year of Baptist schooling and she can quote chapter and verse verbatim, but saw the errors of her ways when we started reading the whole chapter, this occurred before we became engaged, she converted to Catholicism because of the truth.  I recommend listening to Dr.Scott Hahn on this subject, great Catholic Theologian and prior protestant pastor.

 

May the love of God shine his truth upon You.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

 Pre-conception abortion is the spilling of ones seed with the intention of not procreating, ie; condoms, masturbation and act of lust(sex) that is not in communion with God with the intent to procreate.

As I said, it is not correct to call this abortion because a human being does not yet exist in any sense of the word.

[Nihil Obstat]

As to the rest of what you are saying...... I honestly do not know what you are trying to tell me. I objected to a couple very specific mistakes you made. I do not need a theology of the body lesson.

 

 

Is not Birth control, in the form of the pill, morning after, RU248, condoms etc all the halting of the procreation process, therefore the intent of the people that use birth control is to not procreate?

 

 

Does this not lead to then the aborting of a potentially fertilized fetus?

 

So I contend that if a married couple in the Catholic church uses any form of contraception, they are then aborting of a viable child, whether it be the actual fertilized egg or never fertilized because of the contraception, as the couple is outside of the "Marriage act", an act in communion with God so as to procreate.

 

I am just going by what the Church teaches us:

 

 

 

Many (all, perhaps?) hormonal contraceptives are abortifacient, in that a fertilized ovum, a zygote, is not allowed to implant in the uterus (in those cases where the hormonal action of the contraceptive failed to prevent ovulation). In this case it is properly called abortive.

However, a condom, spermicide, masturbation, all your previous examples, are not abortive, because a human being does not yet exist. You are incorrect to refer to "never fertilized" eggs as being aborted, because they are not human beings. That is what the Church, as well as science, teaches.

It is not correct to call an interruption of the process of conception an abortion. If conception is actually interrupted, i.e. conception is not allowed to occur, then this is contraception. It is definitively not abortion.

It remains gravely wrong, but it is not abortion.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Nihil Obstat

[Basilisa Marie]

"Pre-conception abortion" is like saying punching myself in the face is the same as murdering my sister. 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

"Pre-conception abortion" is like saying punching myself in the face is the same as murdering my sister. 

 

Or like saying you got into a fatal car crash when you stub your toe.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Nihil Obstat

[Slappo]

Just to clarify something that mark said. Procreation is not the only purpose of intercourse but is the primary purpose of intercourse. Union with one's spouse is a secondary purpose. If procreation was the only purpose of sex then we wouldn't have sex during pregnancy or infertile times.

I did my theological seminar for my degree on this topic and it was very clearly written in church documents that although procreation is the primary purpose to intercourse it is not the only purpose

Edited January 21, 2013 by Slappo