Fidei Defensor Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 That is why I only referenced Western sources. The Roman Church does have an ancient tradition, but of course private masses and the like are not ancient. Indeed. I'll make sure to call up the Church Fathers if I am curious about how they feel about the modern Latin Rite liturgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Indeed. I'll make sure to call up the Church Fathers if I am curious about how they feel about the modern Latin Rite liturgy. No need to do that, you can just read their writings, something that would no doubt benefit you greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 No need to do that, you can just read their writings, something that would no doubt benefit you greatly. I have. But I also recognize that I am but one insignificant mind and that I trust God to guide His Church to the ends he desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) As far as the modern Roman Rite liturgy is concerned, the Fathers probably would not be too keen on a liturgy being created by a committee, but ignoring that point for a moment, their view of it would probably be determined by how it is celebrated. Is it celebrated reverently or irreverently? Etc. I have. But I also recognize that I am but one insignificant mind and that I trust God to guide His Church to the ends he desires. St. Maximos the Confessor, a lay monk, would tell you that every Christian is a guardian of orthodoxy. In fact, all the great heresiarchs were bishops or priests. :smile3: Edited January 11, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 As far as the modern Roman Rite liturgy is concerned, the Fathers probably would not be too keen on a liturgy being created by a committee, but ignoring that point for a moment, their view of it would probably be determined by how it is celebrated. Is it celebrated reverently or irreverently? Etc. St. Maximos the Confessor, a lay monk, would tell you that every Christian is a guardian of orthodoxy. In fact, all the great heresiarchs were bishops or priests. :smile3: Well if and when I'm called to Rome for my opinion on the matter, I'll spill my guts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well if and when I'm called to Rome for my opinion on the matter, I'll spill my guts. Rome isn't the Church, so you don't need to be "called to Rome" in order to defend the faith and preserve holy orthodoxy. The Church is wherever the people are gathered together under the presidency of a bishop (or one of his presbyters) in order to celebrate the Holy Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Rome isn't the Church, so you don't need to be "called to Rome" in order to defend the faith and preserve holy orthodoxy. The Church is wherever the people are gathered together under the presidency of a bishop (or one of his presbyters) in order to celebrate the Holy Eucharist. Fancy that. I'll go ahead and let my parish priest know that we can shoot the bishop and email and then go ahead and make some changes to the Liturgy. I am quite partial to those plastic blow horns from sports events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Fancy that. I'll go ahead and let my parish priest know that we can shoot the bishop and email and then go ahead and make some changes to the Liturgy. I am quite partial to those plastic blow horns from sports events. Are you really a passive Christian? Can there even be such a thing? You as a lay Christian, a member of the body of Christ, have a duty to defend the faith just like St. Maximos. If you wish to joke about your powerlessness, fine, but I take being a Christian seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Are you really a passive Christian? Can there even be such a thing? You as a lay Christian, a member of the body of Christ, have a duty to defend the faith just like St. Maximos. If you wish to joke about your powerlessness, fine, but I take being a Christian seriously. No. However, you come off as very holier-than-thou with your constant comments about what you don't like about the Latin rite. No one cares. You attend your Eastern rite liturgy and we'll attend our own. Maybe things surrounding authority and structure are different in the East, but I follow the traditions of authority of the Roman Church so I couldn't give a damn about what the East thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) No. However, you come off as very holier-than-thou with your constant comments about what you don't like about the Latin rite. No one cares. You attend your Eastern rite liturgy and we'll attend our own. Maybe things surrounding authority and structure are different in the East, but I follow the traditions of authority of the Roman Church so I couldn't give a damn about what the East thinks. And you come off as someone with a chip on his shoulder (mainly due to "the original sin" thread no doubt). But who cares how either of us "comes off," what is important is the truth, and speaking clearly. There is far too much fog in the Church today. Just look at the horrible liturgies in large numbers of Churches. Perhaps if the lay faithful would stand up together and say "enough is enough . . . the liturgy is sacred," some of these nonsensical things (e.g., clown masses, strange dances and other entertainments) would cease. Maybe Western Christians need to re-evaluate the liturgical reform of the 1960s, and take what was good from it and apply it to the older Roman liturgy and dump the new one. Edited January 12, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 There is far too much fog in the Church today. Just look at the horrible liturgies in large numbers of Churches. Perhaps if the lay faithful would stand up together and say "enough is enough . . . the liturgy is sacred," some of these nonsensical things (e.g., clown masses, strange dances and other entertainments) would cease. Maybe Western Christians need to re-evaluate the liturgical reform of the 1960s, and take what was good from it and apply it to the older Roman liturgy and dump the new one. I agree with this. Don't worry your little heads, this won't end up in an argument unless you really, really try, in which you all deserve Church Scholar tags if you accomplish this. We just won this thread so flooping hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 I agree with this. We just won this thread so flooping hard. False. You did not make an argument about not saying "Amen" except of course for answering questions about why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 False. You did not make an argument about not saying "Amen" except of course for answering questions about why not. That was not specified in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) That was not specified in the OP. But it is what was intended. Edited January 12, 2013 by FuturePriest387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 But it is what was intended. Sounds like judicial activism to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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