For The Sake Of Argument

[Fidei Defensor]

I'm gonna play advocates diaboli for a bit.

 

Lets start with the premise that God is indeed infinitely above our ways and understanding, as we usually say when we come up against something we don't understand — "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!" (Romans 11:33)

 

I have been troubled by the idea that we are said to have free will to choose either heaven or hell, yet we could never fully understand what either choice would entail because we cannot fathom God completely.

 

For example — if you locked child in a room with his favorite food. For the sake of argument, let us say the child is old enough to understand behavioral choices and consequence, and you tell the child that if he doesn't eat the food for the time he stays in the room, he will be rewarded with a large meal with all his favorite foods.  On the flip side, if he does eat it, he will be sent away to die of starvation.

 

If you leave the child in the room long enough, he will eventually eat the food out of hunger. Why? Because the child cannot possibly understand what it means to actually die of starvation. He knows of hunger pangs and has the drive to satisfy it, but cannot be expected to fathom starvation.

 

Would you still send the child to die of starvation knowing that he couldn't possibly make a completely informed decision?

 

I feel like it's the same idea with hell. I know the analogy isn't perfect, but hang with me.  We cannot possibly know truly what eternal damnation means. Yes, it's separation for God. But because we also don't fully fathom what eternal paradise is like, we can't make a completely informed decision.  Would an all-loving God send someone to hell who has "chosen" that path even though that person could never fully comprehend that choice?

[4588686]

No, because there is no God.  But if there were and if he were the Catholic God then yes, the idea of damnation would be appalling and unjust.  And a better scinario would be to after the moment of initial choice sentence the child to suffer starvation pains for all time without end and without the possibility of changing his decision and without this suffering having any redemptive value.  

[Era Might]

I hesitate to respond, for fear of scandalizing you in your new-found faith, so forgive me. I offer this only as my own thoughts.

 

There's a scene in Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" where a drunk gives his version of the end of the world:

 

 

“Why am I to be pitied, you say? Yes! there's nothing to pity me for! I ought to be crucified, crucified on a cross, not pitied! Crucify me, oh judge, crucify me but pity me! And then I will go of myself to be crucified, for it's not merry-making I seek but tears and tribulation!… Do you suppose, you that sell, that this pint of yours has been sweet to me? It was tribulation I sought at the bottom of it, tears and tribulation, and have found it, and I have tasted it; but He will pity us Who has had pity on all men, Who has understood all men and all things, He is the One, He too is the judge. He will come in that day and He will ask: 'Where is the daughter who gave herself for her cross, consumptive step-mother and for the little children of another? Where is the daughter who had pity upon the filthy drunkard, her earthly father, undismayed by his beastliness?' And He will say, 'Come to me! I have already forgiven thee once…. I have forgiven thee once…. Thy sins which are many are forgiven thee for thou hast loved much….' And he will forgive my Sonia, He will forgive, I know it… I felt it in my heart when I was with her just now! And He will judge and will forgive all, the good and the evil, the wise and the meek…. And when He has done with all of them, then He will summon us. 'You too come forth,' He will say, 'Come forth ye drunkards, come forth, ye weak ones, come forth, ye children of shame!' And we shall all come forth, without shame and shall stand before him. And He will say unto us, 'Ye are swine, made in the Image of the Beast and with his mark; but come ye also!' And the wise ones and those of understanding will say, 'Oh Lord, why dost Thou receive these men?' And He will say, 'This is why I receive them, oh ye wise, this is why I receive them, oh ye of understanding, that not one of them believed himself to be worthy of this.' And He will hold out His hands to us and we shall fall down before him… and we shall weep… and we shall understand all things! Then we shall understand all!… and all will understand, Katerina Ivanovna even… she will understand…. Lord, Thy kingdom come!” And he sank down on the bench exhausted, and helpless, looking at no one, apparently oblivious of his surroundings and plunged in deep thought. His words had created a certain impression; there was a moment of silence; but soon laughter and oaths were heard again.

 

This seems to me a beautiful idea, that all will be forgiven, but at the end of the day...it's a drunken rant, a vain hope that (from my view) has no basis in the words of Christ. The original message of Christianity was not a general message of forgiveness, but an invitation and a way toward a new life...for those who would walk the path. It was an heroic struggle against powers and principalities. It was a renunciation of sex, power, money, possessions, and life itself. It was pretty much the opposite of what Christianity is today...a bland system of rules and institutions that ensure the easiest and shortest path to heaven for the most amount of people.

 

I personally can't reconcile Christianity with Christ, and for that reason I find it hard to believe in Christ at all except as a beautiful idea in the history of mankind alongside other beautiful ideas. The only reason I fear death is because I fear hell. And that seems to me an unjust fear...it's hard enough living and dying, and we have to fear an eternal judgment after this life? I can conceive non-existence easier than I conceive hell.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Era Might

[4588686]

Dostoevsky never portrayed a Polish character in a positive light, except for his novel Dead House.  This is ironic since his name suggests that he is of Polish ancestry.  

[Fidei Defensor]

I hesitate to respond, for fear of scandalizing you in your new-found faith, so forgive me. I offer this only as my own thoughts.

 

There's a scene in Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" where a drunk gives his version of the end of the world:

 

 

 

This seems to me a beautiful idea, that all will be forgiven, but at the end of the day...it's a drunken rant, a vain hope that (from my view) has no basis in the words of Christ. The original message of Christianity was not a general message of forgiveness, but an invitation and a way toward a new life...for those who would walk the path. It was an heroic struggle against powers and principalities. It was a renunciation of sex, power, money, possessions, and life itself. It was pretty much the opposite of what Christianity is today...a bland system of rules and institutions that ensure the easiest and shortest path to heaven for the most amount of people.

 

I personally can't reconcile Christianity with Christ, and for that reason I find it hard to believe in Christ at all except as a beautiful idea in the history of mankind alongside other beautiful ideas. The only reason I fear death is because I fear hell. And that seems to me an unjust fear...it's hard enough living and dying, and we have to fear an eternal judgment after this life? I can conceive non-existence easier than I conceive hell.

 

Don't worry, I'm not easily scandalized.

[Basilisa Marie]

That's not how God works. 

 

To use your analogy, God did say "All right, Junior, don't eat the cookie and you'll get a whole cake later."  Then Junior ate the cookie.  So God said, "All right, Junior, I told you not to eat the cookie. But instead of sending you away to die of starvation, now you're going to have to go in the garden and pull weeds before you can have your cake."  God keeps giving Junior more opportunities to do the right thing.  

 

I suspect there are far more people in purgatory than in hell, specifically because so many people don't have full knowledge of their actions.  Furthermore, that's why it's so important for Catholics to act rightly, because we DO know the consequences of our actions better than others may.  No one can fully imagine in acute detail the realities of heaven and hell.  But it's not like we're the only ones at work here.  Christ's sacrifice allows us to choose God, even if we can't fully fathom what that means.  It's easier for us to get a better idea of the kind of life Christ calls us to than it is for us to imagine heaven.  Junior might not be able to imagine the excellence of cake, but he DOES know how to pull weeds the right way, because his big brother Jesus showed him.  If he does his absolute best to pull weeds just like Jesus showed him, even if he does a poor job by comparison, he can have cake. 

Edited December 29, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[4588686]

That's not how God works. 

 

To use your analogy, God did say "All right, Junior, don't eat the cookie and you'll get a whole cake later."  Then Junior ate the cookie.  So God said, "All right, Junior, I told you not to eat the cookie. But instead of sending you away to die of starvation, now you're going to have to go in the garden and pull weeds before you can have your cake."  God keeps giving Junior more opportunities to do the right thing.  

Until one point.  A point that Jr. will not know is coming.  At that point Jr will never again have a chance to pull any weeds and he will suffer for all eternity and without that suffering contributing to his personal betterment at all.  

 

 

 

I suspect there are far more people in purgatory than in hell, specifically because so many people don't have full knowledge of their actions.  Furthermore, that's why it's so important for Catholics to act rightly, because we DO know the consequences of our actions better than others may.  No one can fully imagine in acute detail the realities of heaven and hell.  But it's not like we're the only ones at work here.  Christ's sacrifice allows us to choose God, even if we can't fully fathom what that means.  It's easier for us to get a better idea of the kind of life Christ calls us to than it is for us to imagine heaven.  Junior might not be able to imagine the excellence of cake, but he DOES know how to pull weeds the right way, because his big brother Jesus showed him.  If he does his absolute best to pull weeds just like Jesus showed him, even if he does a poor job by comparison, he can have cake. 

 

His big brother Jesus created him and put him in this sick little context and gave Jr an option to either pull weeds and get cake or suffer for eternity, physically and spiritually.  

 

 

Dressing it up doesn't change the fact that Jesus is giving his 'little brother' the choice to either conform to his will or be tortured forever and without end or possibility of redemption.  

Edited December 29, 2012 by Hasan

[Fidei Defensor]

That's not how God works. 

 

To use your analogy, God did say "All right, Junior, don't eat the cookie and you'll get a whole cake later."  Then Junior ate the cookie.  So God said, "All right, Junior, I told you not to eat the cookie. But instead of sending you away to die of starvation, now you're going to have to go in the garden and pull weeds before you can have your cake."  God keeps giving Junior more opportunities to do the right thing.  

 

I suspect there are far more people in purgatory than in hell, specifically because so many people don't have full knowledge of their actions.  Furthermore, that's why it's so important for Catholics to act rightly, because we DO know the consequences of our actions better than others may.  No one can fully imagine in acute detail the realities of heaven and hell.  But it's not like we're the only ones at work here.  Christ's sacrifice allows us to choose God, even if we can't fully fathom what that means.  It's easier for us to get a better idea of the kind of life Christ calls us to than it is for us to imagine heaven.  Junior might not be able to imagine the excellence of cake, but he DOES know how to pull weeds the right way, because his big brother Jesus showed him.  If he does his absolute best to pull weeds just like Jesus showed him, even if he does a poor job by comparison, he can have cake. 

 

I will grant the purgatory analogy. However, that doesn't account for mortal sins and the corresponding eternal punishment they bring (finite sin meriting infinite punishment is a whole other topic i'm interested in, for another time.)

[Basilisa Marie]

I will grant the purgatory analogy. However, that doesn't account for mortal sins and the corresponding eternal punishment they bring (finite sin meriting infinite punishment is a whole other topic i'm interested in, for another time.)

 

Mortal sin requires full knowledge and full consent of the will.  Most people don't have full knowledge or full consent of the will.  It's much easier for Catholics to commit mortal sins than random dude. 

 

 

Until one point.  A point that Jr. will not know is coming.  At that point Jr will never again have a chance to pull any weeds and he will suffer for all eternity and without that suffering contributing to his personal betterment at all.  

 

His big brother Jesus created him and put him in this sick little context and gave Jr an option to either pull weeds and get cake or suffer for eternity, physically and spiritually.  

 

Dressing it up doesn't change the fact that Jesus is giving his 'little brother' the choice to either conform to his will or be tortured forever and without end or possibility of redemption.  

 

You're fun at parties, aren't you? :)

 

Seems like you're implying conforming to divine will has to be a bad thing.  People are supposed to do the best they can with the hand they're dealt. 

[4588686]

You're fun at parties, aren't you? :)

 

I is.  But people at parties don't usually try to justify something as sick as eternal damnation. 

 

Seems like you're implying conforming to divine will has to be a bad thing.  People are supposed to do the best they can with the hand they're dealt. 

 

 

You avoided both of our points about how your analogy doesn't conform with what the Church actually teaches about hell. 

[MIKolbe]

I have been troubled by the idea that we are said to have free will to choose either heaven or hell, yet we could never fully understand what either choice would entail because we cannot fathom God completely.

 

http://cdn.hark.com/...rshqwhbqgq&as=1

[Basilisa Marie]

I is.  But people at parties don't usually try to justify something as sick as eternal damnation. 

 

 

 

You avoided both of our points about how your analogy doesn't conform with what the Church actually teaches about hell. 

 

And you're ignoring the Church's teaching on sin and mercy. 

[To Jesus Through Mary]

I is.  But people at parties don't usually try to justify something as sick as eternal damnation. 

 

 

 

You avoided both of our points about how your analogy doesn't conform with what the Church actually teaches about hell. 

 

Lemme ask you, what do you think would be just? Going with the Catholic POV 1. God created us. 2. We continually sinned. 3. He continued to try and win our hearts back over to him. 3. He became man, died, and rose again to give us a chance to be with him forever in heaven. 4. He gave us the Church to help us in this. 5. He even gives himself to us in the Eucharist. 6. When we fall he gives us Confession. 7. He continually pours down actual graces to give us contrite hearts. 8. There is no limit to his mercy. 

 

If even after all that plus way more we still choose to spurn our friendship with him. We choose to live in mortal sin. We choose not to repent. What would be just? God will not force anyone to love him, otherwise it would not be authentic love. We have a choice to make. I think the cookie analogy is an oversimplification because we know what is at stake. We know if we cut ourselves off from God we are mortally wounding our soul. It's not like hell is some sort of pay back. It is the absence of God. The absence of God is the absence of anything good, thus pain and torment. If we choose to separate ourselves from God, it is just for him to allow it.  

[Fidei Defensor]

Lemme ask you, what do you think would be just? Going with the Catholic POV 1. God created us. 2. We continually sinned. 3. He continued to try and win our hearts back over to him. 3. He became man, died, and rose again to give us a chance to be with him forever in heaven. 4. He gave us the Church to help us in this. 5. He even gives himself to us in the Eucharist. 6. When we fall he gives us Confession. 7. He continually pours down actual graces to give us contrite hearts. 8. There is no limit to his mercy. 

 

If even after all that plus way more we still choose to spurn our friendship with him. We choose to live in mortal sin. We choose not to repent. What would be just? God will not force anyone to love him, otherwise it would not be authentic love. We have a choice to make. I think the cookie analogy is an oversimplification because we know what is at stake. We know if we cut ourselves off from God we are mortally wounding our soul. It's not like hell is some sort of pay back. It is the absence of God. The absence of God is the absence of anything good, thus pain and torment. If we choose to separate ourselves from God, it is just for him to allow it.  

 

However, I would counter, that while all of that may be true, it isn't self-evident.  In order to partake in any of that, you must have faith.  Faith is a gift.  What about those who don't have the gift? That use their God-given reason and do not conclude that God must exist?  

 

It doesn't seem right to me that God would allow the same punishment for those who don't believe through no fault of their own considering the existence of God and His Church are all based on supernatural revelation.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

However, I would counter, that while all of that may be true, it isn't self-evident.  In order to partake in any of that, you must have faith.  Faith is a gift.  What about those who don't have the gift? That use their God-given reason and do not conclude that God must exist?  

 

It doesn't seem right to me that God would allow the same punishment for those who don't believe through no fault of their own considering the existence of God and His Church are all based on supernatural revelation.

 

That seems more like an argument of predestination. Everyone has the gift of faith. Some more then others. But God has given everyone sufficient grace to get to heaven. But we must respond to that grace. Take you for example, obviously God has given you special graces. You have some sort of longing in your heart, some sort of seeking to even be asking these questions. You are bold enough to ask the questions. You are beginning to respond to some of the grace and faith God has given you. The desire for truth is on everyones hearts. Some are just to lazy or complacent to really ask the hard questions. Also since God gives the grace and judges, and given his tract record in dealing with a sinful people, isn't it fair to say that he is merciful? Isn't it fair enough to say that we could trust God to care for the poor souls who never heard the name of Jesus? But don't you also think it is fair for us who have heard the name of Christ to respond to that call?  

 

Reason could lead anyone to an understanding or knowledge of God. Creation and natural law are examples of that. Obviously Catholics believe that reason is subservient to faith. But it can be a very helpful tool to helping us understand God.

 

Now the idea of predestination is something that has been argued and wrestled with for a long time. I honestly struggle with understanding the Thomistic POV on it. Someone recommended this book to me and said it is the best summary of the Thomistic idea of predestination. Hope you find it helpful. I hope to read it after the New Year. http://www.thesumma.info/predestination/index.php

 

The idea of predestination is obviously not an easy or simple concept. Certainly not one that is resolved overnight. You ask a really valid question. Your approach seems to be one of a skeptic. But if you look within your own life I am sure you will find graces God has given you. If I remember correctly you are in the midsts of a reversion possibly. Which I am sure was spurred on by a grace for you. So I would just encourage you as you wrestle with these ideas to not let them prevent you from responding to the grace you are receiving.  (sorry if I am not remembering correctly and I am way off the mark)