Questions About Private Vows.

[AnneLine]

Dear Catherine and Sr Emmanuel,

 

Just found this as I have been avoiding a few threads myself.

 

I have been on VS for a year now, and lurked for probably 4 or 5.  I remember you well, and continue to remember you in my prayers.   If and as you can return, we look forward to your continuing your thoughts.

 

In the meantime, we hold you in loving prayer.   Please remember us as we remember you.   If it should be your time to go to God, we ask you to recommend us to your Spouse.  

 

Lovingly....

 

AnneLine and all on VS...

Edited January 10, 2013 by AnneLine

[BarbTherese]

God bless!

While a vow has the potential to bring one closer to God, it is holiness of life that does bring one closer to God.  Trust and confidence in The Lord will never lead one astray and at times our spiritual life can seem to be in 'the doldrums'.  This can have many reasons indeed, which is why sound spiritual direction is pure gold in our spiritual quest.  Also, a spiritual director will incline one to be led rather than to lead - it inclines us away from our own will and to be more inclined  towards the will of another in a sound position of guidance and this asks a certain disposition of docility of spirit and humility.

 

The Lord speaks to us in many ways including through others.  Pope Benedict has highly recommended spiritual direction for all - including those in the lay state and secular life.  While we are not bound in obedience to everything The Holy Father has to say, docility of spirit and humility will call for a certain level of obedience in some matters and in this wisdom and prudence will be our guide.  Such obedience can also be an act of trust and confidence in what The Lord has to say through His Church and in many different ways.

I will keep you and your discerning in prayer - please keep me and all in your own prayers. :)

 

 

I just would like to add to the above post, if one cannot find a good spiritual direction, then one can abandon onself confidently and trustfully to The Lord in all things, who will not allow us to stray far from Him. Oh Never ever.  Ideally, one will however continue to prayerfully seek for a director.

This abandoment with trust and confidence to The Lord will strengthen Faith.  Trust and confidence too that if it is His Will, one will find a good director in His Time.  That Faith which is strengthened in any kind of adverse circumstances also asks a certain docility of spirit, humility, which leads to trustful confidence, Faith, in Jesus as Teacher, Guide, Advocate and Master.

 

Matthew Ch13 "[58] And he wrought not many miracles there, because of their unbelief"

 

It is where The Lord finds Faith in Him and His Church that He works miracles of many kinds.  For it is in our day that The Lord chooses most often to speak through His Church and primarily and regularly through His Word and through His Sacraments - and also through The Magisterium and Teaching Office of The Church

 

The Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church

http://www.ewtn.com.au/faith/teachings/chura4.htm

by Fr. William G. Most

By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : "He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10. 16). Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible. This is true even if the Church does not use the solemn ceremony of definition. The day to day teaching of the Church throughout the world, when the Bishops are in union with each other and with the Pope, and present something as definitive, this is infallible. (Vatican II, Lumen gentium # 25). It was precisely by the use of that authority that Vatican I was able to define that the Pope alone, when speaking as such and making things definitive, is also infallible. Of course this infallibility covers also teaching on what morality requires, for that is needed for salvation.

A "theologian" who would claim he needs to be able to ignore the Magisterium in order to find the truth is strangely perverse: the teaching of the Magisterium is the prime, God-given means of finding the truth. Nor could he claim academic freedom lets him contradict the Church. In any field of knowledge, academic freedom belongs only to a properly qualified professor teaching in his own field. But one is not properly qualified if he does not use the correct method of working in his field, e.g., a science professor who would want to go back to medieval methods would be laughed off campus, not protected. Now in Catholic theology , the correct method is to study the sources of revelation, but then give the final word to the Church. He who does not follow that method is not a qualified Catholic theologian. Vatican II taught (Dei Verbum # 10): "The task of authoritatively interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on [Scripture or Tradition], has been entrusted exclusively to the living Magisterium of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."

 

Edited January 10, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[cmaD2006]

Catherine and Sr. Emmanuel -- praying.  Please tell Sr. Emmanuel that cmariadiaz is praying for her, sending my love, hugs, and may Our Lady hold her in her arms at this moment.  I have adoration Sunday Night ... will hold her in prayer in a special way then.

[Chiquitunga]

Hello, My name is Catherine.

 

I am Sister Emmanuel's  blood sister and am writing on her behalf. Sister has Taken a turn for the worse this morning  and asks your prayers.  Sister has again gone into respiratory failure after an episode of bleeding internally and choking.  She is intubated and still conscious but lightly sedated.

 

She  has asked me  in writing to convey you her apologies at not finishing what she was saying to you. She sends her love to each of you and wants you to know that she will be praying for each of you until the she can return. 

 

Kindly,

 

Catherine Finnegan

 

Wow, this post really got buried!!! Indwelling I hope you're doing better!!! :beg:  I noticed you proped something in another thread a few days ago, after this post, so hopefully things are improving ...  :pray:

[BarbTherese]

I have taken the great liberty :blush: of posting your post, Chiquitunga (and Catherine), into the Prayer Request Forum here http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126453-indwellingtrinity-very-ill/#entry2532519

 

Quite rightly you point out that this important prayer request is 'buried' in this thread.  Since IndwellingTrinity (Sr Emmanuel) is normally quite active in the Vocations Forum, perhaps it should be posted as a thread into the Vocations Forum also?  If so, some other member may like to do so. I think I have taken enough liberties. :blush:

[PhuturePriest]

I have taken the great liberty :blush: of posting your post, Chiquitunga (and Catherine), into the Prayer Request Forum here http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126453-indwellingtrinity-very-ill/#entry2532519

 

Quite rightly you point out that this important prayer request is 'buried' in this thread.  Since IndwellingTrinity (Sr Emmanuel) is normally quite active in the Vocations Forum, perhaps it should be posted as a thread into the Vocations Forum also?  If so, some other member may like to do so. I think I have taken enough liberties. :blush:

 

This is America. We're all about liberty. Feel free to take some. ;)

[BarbTherese]

Thank you FP!  DISCLAIMER :saint: I am an Aussie and when I first wandered onto Catholic discussion sites, I quickly realized to stay out of potential problems,  I was going to have to learn about culture divides.  We Aussie's are very 'laid back', relaxed and not fussed all that easily generally about anything really except cricket and football - and one's own turf. :)  So where a potential culture divide may exist, I do try to walk as if on egg shells.

__________________________________

 

On the subject of private vows, back on the 10th January, I wrote to the PONTIFICAL COUNSEL FOR THE LAITY  asking a few questions.  When I get an answer, and it can take months and months...........and months.........I will post the answer.  I addressed my email to "The Secretary, Bishop Josef Clemens" with a cc to Ms Betancourt, Women's Affairs.

The more we approach the Pontifical Counsel for the Laity with questions and all more or less on the same subject, the more likely we are to get some sort of official statement from The Church.........hint hint, nudge nudge

 

Pontifical Council for the Laity - A Dicastery of the Roman Curia at the service of the Laity

Palazzo San Calisto a Trastevere (Piazza San Calisto, 16 00153 Roma)

 

Postal Address: Pontifical Council for the Laity - Palazzo San Calisto - 00120 Vatican City State

Phone: +39 06 69869300 Fax: +39 06 69887214 Email: info@laici.va

 

 

 

"Women's Section" Responsible

Ms. Ana Cristina VILLA BETANCOURT

 

Secretary Bishop Josef Clemens Bishop Josef Clemens was ordained a priest for the archdiocese of Paderborn, Germany, in 1975. From 1984 to 2003 he was personal secretary to then Cardinal Joseph... Readmore

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Posted a thread re Sr Emmanuel's illness into Vocations Station as a thread subject of its own : http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126457-indwellingtrinity-very-ill/#entry2532629

[PhuturePriest]

Thank you FP!  DISCLAIMER :saint: I am an Aussie and when I first wandered onto Catholic discussion sites, I quickly realized to stay out of potential problems,  I was going to have to learn about culture divides.  We Aussie's are very 'laid back', relaxed and not fussed all that easily generally about anything really except cricket and football - and one's own turf. :)  So where a potential culture divide may exist, I do try to walk as if on egg shells.

__________________________________

 

On the subject of private vows, back on the 10th January, I wrote to the PONTIFICAL COUNSEL FOR THE LAITY  asking a few questions.  When I get an answer, and it can take months and months...........and months.........I will post the answer.  I addressed my email to "The Secretary, Bishop Josef Clemens" with a cc to Ms Betancourt, Women's Affairs.

The more we approach the Pontifical Counsel for the Laity with questions and all more or less on the same subject, the more likely we are to get some sort of official statement from The Church.........hint hint, nudge nudge

 

Pontifical Council for the Laity - A Dicastery of the Roman Curia at the service of the Laity

Palazzo San Calisto a Trastevere (Piazza San Calisto, 16 00153 Roma)

 

Postal Address: Pontifical Council for the Laity - Palazzo San Calisto - 00120 Vatican City State

Phone: +39 06 69869300 Fax: +39 06 69887214 Email: info@laici.va

 

 

 

"Women's Section" Responsible

Ms. Ana Cristina VILLA BETANCOURT

 

Secretary Bishop Josef Clemens Bishop Josef Clemens was ordained a priest for the archdiocese of Paderborn, Germany, in 1975. From 1984 to 2003 he was personal secretary to then Cardinal Joseph... Readmore

 

 

Yeah, don't worry about it here, generally. I'm an extremely laid-back person, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't know why that would ever be a problem, at least in my view.

[BarbTherese]

                :like2:          My problems (one quite major one - and really I have only had two) - were more concerned with terms that I used failing to realize that they had a more dramatic type of understanding in the USA particuarly than we have here in Australia.   It's no big deal whatsoever and it taught me a valuable lesson about culture divides and especially now when we are a global community.  It is respectful to other cultures and also religions to try not be offensive to a different culture or religion if at all possible and on these Catholic discussions sites, there are many cultures, even religions, amongst members. 

Edited January 14, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[Sister_Laurel]

Again, I'm very thankful for all the information; it has been helpful!  :)

 

I had another question concerning obtaining permission from a spiritual director. I do have a priest that has been very helpful to me in certain situations and he's the one to whom I ask questions and to talk about my spiritual life. He isn't in my area, actually very far away. I don't know if he knows me well enough to be able to give me the permission for this so I don't know if he would be able to or not.

 

I know my intention is pure and I know where my heart stands; that this vow is most likely already in my heart. I would though like to do this while remaining in the world and Lord willing that I would be able to enter a religious community at some point. However, I wouldn't want to do this if I knew it would be displeasing to Our Lord because I don't have the proper permission before making this vow (receiving the permission from a priest.) Would it be more prudent then not to do this if I weren't to get permission because the priest doesn't know me well enough? 

 

A private vow does not require permission. For that matter no priest unless he is your legitimate superior (via public vow) can grant permission in any meaningful way or withhold it. Any person giving "permission" for a private vow is overstepping their legitimate (and moral) boundaries. You, as a lay person are entirely free in this matter precisely because the vow is completely private. Even if the priest was your spiritual director he would not be a legitimate superior nor would you be bound in obedience to him. A priest may merely witness the vow or not. Permission is not actually possible, nor is or actual reception of the vow in the name of the Church implied in private vows. If you are sure the vow is what God is calling you to, then make it. Should you eventually determine you were mistaken, outgrow the need for the vow, or move into a situation with public vows, private vows are simply dispensed or replaced by the more demanding public vows. Again, permission is neither necessary nor possible with private vows.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[BarbTherese]

One does not need permission to make a private vow of any kind from any person whatsoever.  It is strictly between the person making the vow and God. However, if one is wise and prudent to my way of thiking, one will seek advice on the matter and especially if one has a spiritual director.  Is it necessary to seek advice, no it is not.  If one does seek advice from a spiritual director or some other person wise and prudent, educated, is one bound to follow that advice.  No, there is absolutely no necessity to follow that advice. 

 

 The Church has not legislated re what private vows (content of vow) can or cannot be made.  The Church has made no statements in this direction.

 

One can be dispensed from a private vow or vows under those conditions laid out in Canon Law for such dispensation.  A private vow or vows can be commuted into an equal or greater good by the person making the private vow, but never a lesser good without a dispensation and in the case of a private vow, that dispensation is not as involved as in the case of public canonical vows.  Dispensation from private vows is a relatively simple matter. 

 

It needs to be remembered however that making even a private vow of any kind to God is a serious matter, not to be done lightly.  Because the private vow is realively easy to be dispensed from, this is not an indication that a private vow should be lightly made.

 

While Church law is our guide in all matters, laws are never ends in themselves.  In the case of Church Law, it is meant to guide us into holiness of life. 

The concordance covering vows in Canon Law, including dispensations, is here : http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P4C.HTM

 

One can read about "Vows" generally in New Advent http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15511a.htm

[Sister_Laurel]

One does not need permission to make a private vow of any kind from any person whatsoever.  It is strictly between the person making the vow and God. However, if one is wise and prudent to my way of thiking, one will seek advice on the matter and especially if one has a spiritual director.  Is it necessary to seek advice, no it is not.  If one does seek advice from a spiritual director or some other person wise and prudent, educated, is one bound to follow that advice.  No, there is absolutely no necessity to follow that advice. 

 

 The Church has not legislated re what private vows (content of vow) can or cannot be made.  The Church has made no statements in this direction.

 

One can be dispensed from a private vow or vows under those conditions laid out in Canon Law for such dispensation.  A private vow or vows can be commuted into an equal or greater good by the person making the private vow, but never a lesser good without a dispensation and in the case of a private vow, that dispensation is not as involved as in the case of public canonical vows.  Dispensation from private vows is a relatively simple matter. 

 

It needs to be remembered however that making even a private vow of any kind to God is a serious matter, not to be done lightly.  Because the private vow is realively easy to be dispensed from, this is not an indication that a private vow should be lightly made.

 

While Church law is our guide in all matters, laws are never ends in themselves.  In the case of Church Law, it is meant to guide us into holiness of life. 

The concordance covering vows in Canon Law, including dispensations, is here : http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P4C.HTM

 

One can read about "Vows" generally in New Advent http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15511a.htm

 

 

While I agree private vows are significant acts of self-commitment and dedication, permission for them is neither needed nor possible except from a legitimate superior for someone already publicly vowed. Lay persons have complete freedom in this regard. Their directors cannot  really give meaningful permission nor can their pastors. They can voice concerns make suggestions and agree to witness these or not, but permission is a different matter altogether. If, for instance a SD client comes to me and wants to make a private vow, we will certainly discuss it, but I cannot "give permission". This is true of a person's pastor as well. He can discuss the matter, help the person discern, etc, but permission is neither his to give or withhold. Permission implies a relationship of legitimate superiority and lay persons do NOT have this relationship with their pastors in such matters precisely because they are entirely private.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermtiage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

Edited January 15, 2013 by SRLAUREL

[BarbTherese]

Thank you, Sister. :)   A lay person does not need any sort of permission to make a private vow, nor is one's SD or priest able/in a position to give permission per se in the matter of a lay person and private vows since no permission is ever required in the first place for a lay person.  It is the lay person's free and independant choice.  A priest or SD can certainly give advice - yes, permission - no,  All as stated in my post you quoted and all as I wrote originally here :

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126164-questions-about-private-vows/page-

 

I am pretty sure all readers of this thread would now understand re the matter of "permission" and private vows.  :)

[BarbTherese]

Vita Consecrata - Pope John Paul II

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031996_vita-consecrata_en.html

 

POST-SYNODAL
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
VITA CONSECRATA
OF THE HOLY FATHER
JOHN PAUL II

ON THE CONSECRATED LIFE AND ITS MISSION
IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD

 

Thanksgiving for the consecrated life

2. Because the role of consecrated life in the Church is so important, I decided to convene a Synod in order to examine in depth its significance and its future prospects, especially in view of the approaching new millennium. It was my wish that the Synodal Assembly should include, together with the Bishops, a considerable number of consecrated men and women, in order that they too might contribute to the common reflection.

We are all aware of the treasure which the gift of the consecrated life in the variety of its charisms and institutions represents for the ecclesial community. Together let us thank God for the Religious Orders and Institutes devoted to contemplation or the works of the apostolate, for Societies of Apostolic Life, for Secular Institutes and for other groups of consecrated persons, as well as for all those individuals who, in their inmost hearts, dedicate themselves to God by a special consecration.