Stuck In A Place

[AnneLine]

Oh, I get that... and I'd certainly take them up on the place & the language lessons..... but don't rule out at least check out a few more communities..... but you know your heart and what God wants from you better than we do.  

 

And we have you covered in prayer.... kind of like Dust's crazy not-quite-mistletow holly bush.... Nothing says 'God loves you' like a reminder to kiss the webmaster!   And we can use it to remember to pray for you, too!!!

 

 

Edited December 27, 2012 by AnneLine

[savvy]

And we have you covered in prayer.... kind of like Dust's crazy not-quite-mistletow holly bush.... Nothing says 'God loves you' like a reminder to kiss the webmaster!   And we can use it to remember to pray for you, too!!!

 

Thanks AnneLinne and Dust.  :kiss:

 

 

Edited December 27, 2012 by savvy

[emmaberry101]

Wonderful news from your Sister, savvy! My prayers will be with you. I know how it feels to have the discernment process with a certain community going slower than we would wish.. Not to imply that you don't want to follow the Sisters good advice, or anything like that! Mother Teresa said, "She knows, she knows" concerning girls and their vocations, and this extends to the special community God has for you. When you "know" it is hard to go in one slow footstep at a time, when we just want to sprint inside.

 

Regardless, this red tape the Sisters are asking you to cut through will make your future entrance (wherever it may be) that much sweeter for having ripened in your waiting!

Edited December 28, 2012 by emmaberry101

[AccountDeleted]

I wouldn't worry too much about their advice to check out other communities. They are just concerned for your well being and happiness and they don't want you to be sorry for your choice later, feeling perhaps that you should have checked out other places just to be sure.

 

When I left Carmel the first time, I did it because I felt that perhaps I was called to be a hermit instead of a 'hermit in community'. After I tried this and realised that I didn't feel called to hermit life, I tried to return to Carmel but was told no, that they felt I wouldn't settle back there. I spent many years checking out different communities and lifestyles before God finally led me back to my first Carmel again, where they decided that I was finally ready to return. Throughout it all, they were concerned with my spiritual well-being.

 

If your community is asking you to check out a few places first, it may be that they truly do not want you to go through what I went through - 'the grass is always greener' syndrome - where you wonder if you made the right decision the first time. So trust them and check out a few places. If you then truly feel that your first choice is the right one, go back and tell them so. You don't have to spend years doing this (as I did) - just a little research and maybe a couple of visits. If your vocation really is to the first place, then the longing will just increase - which is a good thing.

 

Even when one is just about to enter Carmel, the Prioress first has to take the person into the parlour and ask them if they still want to do this and if they are sure about it. It isn't that she is trying to scare the person, she has to do it - to make sure that the person is entering of their own free will and choice and that they have really thought about it.

 

Waiting is something that will probably never come naturally to me, but I have always seen a benefit from allowing myself to accept that I am not the one in control. It is a type of vulnerability to God that really draws one closer to Him. Let Him do it.

[savvy]

So trust them and check out a few places. If you then truly feel that your first choice is the right one, go back and tell them so. You don't have to spend years doing this (as I did) - just a little research and maybe a couple of visits.

 

I understand this nunsense, but most monastic/contemplative communities do not have a 'come and see', like active communities. They are often hesitant to let someone visit, unless they truly feel they are being called to their community. How do I deal with this?

 

 

 

[AccountDeleted]

I understand this nunsense, but most monastic/contemplative communities do not have a 'come and see', like active communities. They are often hesitant to let someone visit, unless they truly feel they are being called to their community. How do I deal with this?

 

 

 

 

I could be wrong, so you might clarify this with your chosen community, but I doubt whether they actually insist that you spend a great deal of time with other communities, just that you investigate them.

 

In all of the cloistered communities where I have been discerning, on first contact, I met with the Prioress (or Abbess) or in one Benedictine community with the Guest Mistress for a brief chat. In Carmel, one is often also introduced to some others in the community, perhaps the Novice Mistress or the Bursar for a chat. None of these communities expected me to commit to entering with them before agreeing to meet with me - that would be like asking a person on a first date but insisting they guarantee that they will eventually marry them.

 

Perhaps you are approaching communities in a way that makes them hesitant to meet with you? If you send an email or make a phone call in which you say, 'I know where I really want to enter, but I have to come visit you before they will let me in.' then I can see why they wouldn't even want to meet with you - it is a bit like asking someone out on a date but saying, 'I am not really interested in you because I am in love with someone else, but I should probably just make sure they are the right one by dating you.' A bit insulting.

 

I am not saying that is how you approach them - it is an hyperbole (exaggeration). But I would suggest you look at just how you are presenting yourself when you request a visit. Nun runs are great for active communities, but most cloistered communities simply wait to be approached. So I would suggest you send an email, write a letter or make a phone call and say something along these lines... 'My name is ... I believe I have a vocation to cloistered life and I am trying to discern God's will for me. Would it be possible for me to come meet someone there to discuss how you live out your life of consecration to God and to find out more about your community?'

 

You might even go on to say that it is early days for you and you are hoping God will make His will known to you through visits to different cloistered communities.

 

I don't see how any of them could object to providing more information to someone about their own charism and lifestyle if that person is sincerely discerning God's will. But if you tell them that you are determined to enter a particular community but they insist you visit others, it sounds as if your will if more important to you than God's will. What religious community wants to be involved with that?

 

Think about it. Give God a little room to work. Yes, you might be right about your choice of community, but the very fact that they have asked you to do a little research means that maybe they want to see if you are open to His will and not your own. Pray.

 

and PS - a live-in isn't particularly necessary unless you do feel an attraction to one of the places you visit. Just having visited and spoken with them should be sufficient for you and for your community to verify that you have done some research.

Edited December 28, 2012 by nunsense

[savvy]

Thanks Nunsense. Your advice, helped clarify a lot of things for me. Renewed Seasons Greetings. When are you going to the Carmel?

 

 

 

 

 

[AccountDeleted]

Thanks Nunsense. Your advice, helped clarify a lot of things for me. Renewed Seasons Greetings. When are you going to the Carmel?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Best wishes with your discernment.

 

I leave Melbourne on Monday 31st December and will enter Carmel on Friday 4th January after a few days rest to recover from the long flight and jet lag.

[savvy]

I wish you all the success and blessings in Carmel. :) 

[nikita92]

Nunsense- Would you please elaborate on "sincerely discerning God's will"?! Thanks

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense- Would you please elaborate on "sincerely discerning God's will"?! Thanks

 

Hmmmm. You've made me stop and think what I mean. The phrase comes so naturally to me that I guess I never thought that it might mean something different to others (or that they might ask me what I meant) :)

 

Let's see if I can pull it out from somewhere...

 

We all have free will, we know that. We are in control of our own choices, decisions, behavior etc. God gives that to us as a gift even though He could direct everything to happen in accordance with His will, not ours. But just as He gave the angels the freedom to choose, He also gives us the freedom to choose. We know that already. We also know that not all of the angels chose wisely because some of them chose not to serve God. God knew what was best for them, to love Him and serve Him and be given the gift of the Beatific vision, but He didn't force them.

 

In our lives we are always given a choice to follow Him more closely or to do that which is not particularly good for our souls. The consequences of our choices may not be as immediately apparent or result in an ultimate evil, because we aren't limited to a one-time only offer. God knows our weaknesses and that we don't make our choices based on total knowledge of a situation as the angels did, so we sometimes choose unwisely and sometimes choose wisely. He works with us to correct our mistakes and to make something positive come out of them every time we turn back to Him for help. He also gave us Jesus to atone for our more serious sins and to wipe away the original sin of our first human parents. So we are especially blessed in so many ways. We get free will and we get the help of a loving and merciful Father to guide us when we go astray.

 

When I say 'sincerely discerning God's will' I mean honestly trying to choose that which is for the greater good of our soul rather than the transient attractions that please our senses. Jesus told us that spirit is everything, the flesh is nothing. He was not telling us that we shouldn't take care of our bodies, but that we should never forget that this life is temporal but our souls are eternal, so their care should be our first priority.

 

When we are discerning religious life, it is very easy to get caught up in the 'I want' mind-set. I want a convent that wears a romantic looking habit. I want a convent than only chants the Office a particular way. I want a convent that never uses email. The list is endless and is basically saying 'I want a convent that is everything that I want.' And we can also sometimes get a bit like Feruca Salt in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, 'I want it, and I want it NOW!'

 

The argument to this is that we need to follow our affinities, that God made us a certain way and knows what we are like so it's ok to find a place that suits our personality. We have a better chance of succeeding if we enter a place that suits us.

 

Ok, point taken but the flip side of this argument is that God not only knows us and our likes and dislikes, but He also knows our sins and our failings and how these affect the welfare of our soul. Remembering that He wants what is best for our soul, we need to trust that He knows what place will best suit us, whether or not we necessarily think it is the 'ideal' place or our dream convent.

 

Am I saying then that we shouldn't care about the externals of a community?

 

Not at all. I am saying that we were given an intellect to help us discern God's will. But faith and reason go hand in hand. The intellect will take us to a certain point and then the next step will be one of faith and trust, not reason. We can use our affinities to help get us to a certain point, and then we have to take a step in darkness while holding onto His hand. That's what faith is - it's dark.

 

And if it didn't seem complicated enough already, God also allows certain things to happen in order to humble us, to instruct us and to teach us compassion for others and trust in Him.

 

In this particular thread the poster was asked to check out other communities before applying. And yet the OP is certain that this is the right place so why does she have to do this? Maybe God is testing her patience, her obedience, her perseverence, her dedication of purpose. Or maybe He knows something she doesn't know, that there is another place that would be even better for her soul. She doesn't think so now, but trusting that He will guide her, she takes the steps she has been asked to take in dark faith.

 

One of two things will probably happen. She will find that the first place is still the one she feels most called to or she will find another place that she never knew about that speaks to her even more than the first place. In either case, God's will is being served because she took the steps she was asked to take. In either case, she put aside her own will (which tells her that she has already found the place so why should she have to keep looking) for God's will (as given to her through the superior of the community where she wants to enter). So if she, in humility, responds to the request given to her, she is following God's will, and will be guided in the direction that is most beneficial for her soul. Along the way she may encounter obstacles or challenges, or it may all go smoothly, but if she stays close to God, being open to what He is trying to show her and trusting that it will all work out for her soul's good in the end - then no matter what happens, her soul benefits and her relationship with God is strengthened.

 

Sometimes we feel we need to push a little to move things along, and there is nothing wrong with this - St Therese really wanted to enter Carmel so she pushed a few times. In the end, she did have to wait longer than she wanted to, but her efforts weren't in vain because she demonstrated strength of purpose and convinced others that she really did have a vocation. The reason I bring this up is because sometimes we do get told things by others that aren't necessarily the 'voice of God' speaking to us, but more of a test of our own determination to persevere. I can't tell you the number of times I have been told that I have no vocation and should just give up. Sometimes when you are tired or a little low, you even start to believe these things yourself. Discerning God's will isn't always easy. But when one is given a direct request by a superior where one hopes to enter, then things do get a little clearer. In this case, I think it is easy to see that nothing will be lost by doing what is being asked and there may be much to gain in terms of humility, knowledge and patience.

 

 

Ok - that's a long winded response but some answers aren't easy ones. Hope that clarifies what I meant by my words. 

[savvy]

The argument to this is that we need to follow our affinities, that God made us a certain way and knows what we are like so it's ok to find a place that suits our personality. We have a better chance of succeeding if we enter a place that suits us.

 

Nunsense, this sounds like what the Jerusalem sister told me. She told me that I might have to detach from their community, to discover who I am as a person etc. The main concern, that I have been told was that their life might be too fast-paced for me. This brings me to another question, how does one know what rythmn is right for them, esp. without trying it out.

 

 

 

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense, this sounds like what the Jerusalem sister told me. She told me that I might have to detach from their community, to discover who I am as a person etc. The main concern, that I have been told was that their life might be too fast-paced for me. This brings me to another question, how does one know what rythmn is right for them, esp. without trying it out.

 

 

 

 

You know, it isn't easy to address specific situations without knowing all the details and the person involved so I can't really explain what she meant by her words. It does sound though as if she is trying to tell you to find out for yourself who you are and what rhythm would be right for you.

 

Discernment is not just a process of checking out communities; it is also about learning more about yourself and understanding how you, as a unique and particular expression of God's love (for that, in essence, is what a human being is) can best serve and glorify Him, because that is the ultimate good for your soul.

 

In your case, I might start off by writing down everything I remembered from the conversation with the sister from Jerusalem and then trying to understand each point. Why do you think she said the things she did? What do you think she saw in you that made her think that their life-style might be too fast paced for you? Do you agree with her or do you know things about yourself that she doesn't know - for example, how do you present yourself to others as opposed to how you are in private? Are they the same or different? Are people getting the right idea about you or not?

 

People have often told me that I seem like a social person, an extrovert. The reason for this is that I have worked in careers where I have had to interact with a lot of people: as a nurse, a teacher and a manager. In these situations, it is true that I can deal with lots of people and even make them feel as if I am enjoying myself (which to some extent I am because I do love people) but in private I am much more introverted, preferring solitude to company. In a structured work environment I do what I have to do and do it well, but when given a choice, I never attend parties or socialise with others, never go to places where there are large crowds of people such as sporting events or concerts. I would prefer to read or work alone than to join up with others to do something social. That doesn't mean I can't do it, it just means that I prefer not to.

 

This means that someone who only knows my 'public face' would not understand why I would prefer to be a cloistered contemplative nun than an active apostolic one. I know myself well enough to know that I would soon be drained by the life of an active apostolate and would suffer both physically and spiritually in this lifestyle.

 

Do you know yourself well enough to know whether you would work better in a fast paced environment or a more sedate one, with more people around or less, in an atmosphere of silence and solitude or one of companionship and sharing? Look at your life now and see what activities you choose to do when you are not constrained by work or other responsibilities. In other words, get to know yourself and then you will be able to know what rhythym is best for you.

 

Perhaps I will also add a caution here because things are not always as they seem and sometimes we are asked by God to extend ourselves a little beyond our comfort zone. In the cloister, it is not always a slow paced and relaxing lifestyle, with nuns floating around the cloisters praying. Far from it. The daily schedule is quite full, with every minute of the day being accounted for. The pace is set by the horarium and managed by the bells. Sometimes, when I first entered, I was astonished at how pressured life seemed, and I even commented that I had never felt as busy in the world as I did in the convent - always rushing somewhere to do something.That might be one of the reasons I felt a need to get away, to be a hermit so that I could slow down and move at my own pace for awhile. But after spending time as a hermit, I realised that the structure of the convent timetable was also a freedom, just as the vow of obedience is also a freedom. But it's hard to explain these things without experiencing them. The horarium frees one from self-indulgence and sloth just as obedience frees one from self-will and self-love. But it does take a little time to find the freedom in these things. Once this is done though, the pace doesn't seem quite so fast anymore and there is a joy at each different part of the day, from the Office in choir, the work to support the convent, the time spent with sisters washing up or having Recreation, and of course, the times of solitude in one's cell or walking around the gardens. One sinks into the rhythm of the life and it becomes a part them, as comfortable as breathing. My favorite part of every day is the time spent in mental prayer, when I can reflect on everything in the day and then let it all go but there are also times during the day when everything just seems to be perfect, and I feel as if I am in exactly the right place at the right time doing the right thing for me - a beauty that is hard to describe. The silence is a big help of course, as is the fact that we each work alone. But that is perfect for me because of who I am. For someone else, it might be working together in community that feels just right, whether in a cloistered community work room or an active apostolate.

 

So yes, we do need to look at convents based on our affinities and personalites, but once again, things aren't always as easy as they look at first glance. When we offer ourselves to God, He accepts our offering AS IS. But as we grow in our spirtuality, He starts to ask for more - because He knows that we need to grow and develop in spirit as well as in our mortal life. Some people might have more asked from the very beginning - there are great saints like Therese who are given much, but from whom God also asks much. There are the rest of us who take longer to learn so we might start out with a gentler incline in the hill to start off with, but then over time, we are asked for more. That is why I said before that it isn't JUST about our affiinities. If we found the perfect convent and lived with perfect sisters and had the perfect life, then we would have our reward - here. But fortunately, there is no perfect convent, nor perfect sisters (including ourselves) and no perfect life this side of heaven. And most of us have a little purifying to go before our souls are ready for heaven. That's what surrender to God's will is all about, along with prayers, penance and fasting. And that's why everything doesn't go right for us all the time. We are greatly loved and that means that we get what is good for us, not always what we want.

 

John of the Cross says many things that sound too hard so they are often discounted, but over time they start to make a little more sense, especially as we grow spiritually. He says things like don't do the easy thing, do the hard thing, ask for trials not compensations - things that sound insane - because they are, for someone who isn't spiritually ready to hear them. But they require common sense as well as spiritual strength if one doesn't want to become scrupulous or masochistic. On a very basic level, I see this to mean that we accept with as much faith and trust as possible that we might not always get what we want, even if we think that desire is a good and holy and very real one. We trust that if we are meant to have it, then God will give it to us, in His way, and His time and when we are ready for it. And if we aren't meant to have it, then there is a very good reason for that but God may or may not ever reveal that reason to us in this lifetime.

 

For me, the most important part of discernment is --- TRUST. As much as we love God and want to be with Him, He is loving us more and wanting us to be with Him even more. So we have nothing to fear. As St Paul said, with Christ on our side, who can stand against us? Get to know yourself as much as possible, honestly and objectively, weaknesses, strengths, reasons for your likes and dislikes (not all reasons are pure ones), what you have to offer a community and what you hope to receive in living with one. Get to know God intimately, in your heart, and learn to hear when He whispers to you, not just when He shouts and demands your attention.

 

Do you need to live with each community? No. But visit a few. If any of them speak to your heart for some reason, then it might be a good idea to do a live-in, if they allow it.  I did not do a live-in with Wolverhampton Carmel before I entered because I lived in another country. I entered as a postulant. I loved it there but felt overwhelmed and wanted to run away to become a hermit. Perhaps if I had done a live-in first I might have saved myself some grief because I could have left to spend time with hermits, discovered that I really did belong back in Carmel and gone back there. So when I did try to go back they were worried about me returning at that time and said no. So I spent time visiting and living with other Carmels and communities before God finally led me broken and humbled back to Wolverhampton, where I had no hope of re-entering. I kept telling Him that I trusted Him no matter how much it hurt, and I never gave up although I was getting very close to doing so. When I reached the end of all my efforts, He picked me up and put me back inside, like He did with St Rita - against all odds. I did the live-in that I never did the first time and knew that I was home again.

 

I tell you my story to encourage you not to lose hope if you have to spend time in preparation before you find your own home in religious life. God is an amazing lover and woos us in ways we can't begin to imagine or understand. Never lose the personal connection with Jesus, and if you don't have one, then do something about it. Nothing will take you more safely to your destination than a deep, personal relationship with Him.

 

Sorry for the long winded response, but I don't know how to write short responses... :)

[petitpèlerin]

Nunsense, your writing reminds me of Teresa of Avila's. I don't think she knew how to give a short response, either, but man, did she give good ones. :)

[savvy]

Nunsense,

 

Thanks once again for all the advice. Yes, the Sister told me that I would be better suited to a more contemplative community. I am a writer, so I do have a deep, reflective personality.

 

As hard as this is more to admit, I will have to look into other contemplative communities. Then if God still tells me that Jerusalem is the right place for me. I will have to go there.