Apotheoun Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) The reason why "God the Father" is the primary image for one of the persons of the Trinity is because of the connotations a "father" has, both in love and authority. When someone wanted to highlight the loving and nurturing aspects of God, they use feminine, motherly imagery. In some Eastern Churches, especially in languages that have more than one gender for nouns (not just "it" like we do), the Holy Spirit sometimes is given a feminine pronoun. Jesus uses two parables to describe how God will always search for us when we stray because we are valuable - the parable of the shepherd with the lost sheep AND the parable of the woman with the lost coin. Part of the reason why God as mother fell into disuse was because many pagan religions refer to God as mother, so many Christian leaders wanted to differentiate themselves from them. The Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, do not believe that the Holy Spirit is "female," even when a particular language may use the feminine gender when speaking about the Spirit. Moreover, the Greek language, which is the language of the inspired New Testament, never uses the feminine gender when speaking about the Spirit. Either a masculine gendered word or a neuter word is used to refer to the Spirit. But why was Christ male? Well, like others have said, maybe it's because men have very different roles than women in ancient Jewish culture, especially because men had a greater role in public than women. Practically speaking, it'd be way easier for Christ to be male than to be female. Even though he is God, people still have to choose to listen to him, and I don't think anyone would have if he was a woman. Christ did not become incarnate as male because of Jewish culture; instead, He was incarnate as male because of the dogma of the Trinity. God the Father eternally generated His Son, and that is why the incarnation involves the eternal Son of God taking on human nature and becoming the Son of Man. To say anything else in connection with the incarnation would be heretical. I still think you're taking the issue of God's gender way too literally. God is beyond gender. He created gender. He doesn't have to be male to be Christ's father. We use gendered metaphors for God because that's the best and most universal way for a person from any time period to understand real truths about God. Because God is like a loving father. And he is like a nurturing mother. In the same way Christ is our brother and also our lord and master. The reasons why "he" is theologically appropriate are part of Tradition, but the reasons why we prefer to use "he" are tradition. I do not think that you are taking the sex of God incarnate seriously enough. God became man intentionally, and He did so because of the eternal nature of the Trinity. God is truly Father, while human fatherhood is merely an image of His Fatherhood, and God is truly Son, while human sonship is a weak image of the eternal divine Sonship. God did not choose to become man in the incarnation for cultural or political reasons; instead, the eternal Son of God became man because this corresponds to the eternal Trinitarian life of the Godhead. Edited December 27, 2012 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountrySteve21 Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 Yes. Since Jesus was Jewish and the first Christians were Jewish. A comparable figure could have come out of a different faith tradition and have been female. In fact that did happen with the elevation of Mary into a sort of vaguely goddess like figure as the Church was expanding east. hardly... Mary is not treated as a goddess, she is venerated with the honor she deserves, but she is only human. God bless you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, do not believe that the Holy Spirit is "female," even when a particular language may use the feminine gender when speaking about the Spirit. Moreover, the Greek language, which is the language of the inspired New Testament, never uses the feminine gender when speaking about the Spirit. Either a masculine gendered word or a neuter word is used to refer to the Spirit. Christ did not become incarnate as male because of Jewish culture; instead, He was incarnate as male because of the dogma of the Trinity. God the Father eternally generated His Son, and that is why the incarnation involves the eternal Son of God taking on human nature and becoming the Son of Man. To say anything else in connection with the incarnation would be heretical. I do not think that you are taking the sex of God incarnate seriously enough. God became man intentionally, and He did so because of the eternal nature of the Trinity. God is truly Father, while human fatherhood is merely an image of His Fatherhood, and God is truly Son, while human sonship is a weak image of the eternal divine Sonship. God did not choose to become man in the incarnation for cultural or political reasons; instead, the eternal Son of God became man because this corresponds to the eternal Trinitarian life of the Godhead. Thank you Apo! Hope you are well, God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 The Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, do not believe that the Holy Spirit is "female," even when a particular language may use the feminine gender when speaking about the Spirit. Moreover, the Greek language, which is the language of the inspired New Testament, never uses the feminine gender when speaking about the Spirit. Either a masculine gendered word or a neuter word is used to refer to the Spirit. Christ did not become incarnate as male because of Jewish culture; instead, He was incarnate as male because of the dogma of the Trinity. God the Father eternally generated His Son, and that is why the incarnation involves the eternal Son of God taking on human nature and becoming the Son of Man. To say anything else in connection with the incarnation would be heretical. I do not think that you are taking the sex of God incarnate seriously enough. God became man intentionally, and He did so because of the eternal nature of the Trinity. God is truly Father, while human fatherhood is merely an image of His Fatherhood, and God is truly Son, while human sonship is a weak image of the eternal divine Sonship. God did not choose to become man in the incarnation for cultural or political reasons; instead, the eternal Son of God became man because this corresponds to the eternal Trinitarian life of the Godhead. 1. I never meant to imply that. I said that some languages have gendered words, with gendered definite articles, unlike English, which just has the neuter unless you're referring to a person with a literal sex. What I had in mind specifically was the Shekhinah, a word that understood to mean the presence of the lord and the glory of the lord, considered to be synonymous with the presence of God in the temple or the burning bush or the cloud that spoke to Moses. The Spirit isn't LITERALLY female, any more than it is LITERALLY male. Many words are used to describe God, some of which are feminine. This means that we cannot say that God is literally male. 2. Dude, did you not read what I said? I said that PART of the reason why Christ is male MIGHT be because it's easier for men to go about in public and speak authoritatively in Jewish culture. But then I went on to say that I suspect that there is something about gender that the Church has yet to explore, so there is MOST LIKELY some wonderfully deep theological reason for Christ being male, having to do with something inherent to maleness. The Church hasn't explored this yet, and when it does, we'll have a better answer to "Why is Christ male?" than just "because he is." Everything you're saying about the incarnation has nothing to do with Christ's maleness. Just the fact that he became human. 3. Again, you're reading me selectively. God is truly father, yes, in the way he is loving and authoritative, but he is also truly mother in the way he is loving and nurturing. God is not literally male. Christ is male. God is BEYOND GENDER. There are many good reasons for using male pronouns and names for God, but we can't actually believe that God is LITERALLY MALE. Like I said before, I do in fact suspect there is a deep theological reason why Christ is male, but the fact remains that the Church does not yet have a nuanced explanation for WHY. If you notice, I've exclusively used male pronouns for God. I'm not trying to advocate for other pronouns for God. What I'm saying is that while our names for God and metaphors for God express inherent truths about the nature of God, we can't limit God to our language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 If God is truly mother can we call Him God the Mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 CCC 239 By calling God "Father", the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. the language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzytakara Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) I don't think Christianity would have been better if Jesus was born female, if that were the case God would have willed it. To speculate whether or not a female Jesus would be better would indirectly imply that our male Jesus was somehow lacking, not good enough, needs improvement. Jesus was born male understandably from the nature of the Holy Trinity, but Him being male by no means subtracts from the religion. God has His reasons for all that he does, and I trust that Jesus being born male as opposed to female is a part of his plan, and as it is God's plan it could not be done better. Edited December 27, 2012 by jazzytakara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 2. Dude, did you not read what I said? I said that PART of the reason why Christ is male MIGHT be because it's easier for men to go about in public and speak authoritatively in Jewish culture. Yeah, "dude" I read what you said, and I don't agree with you. It is connected to the Trinity and not to any cultural norms of the Jews. God bless. If you notice, I've exclusively used male pronouns for God. I'm not trying to advocate for other pronouns for God. What I'm saying is that while our names for God and metaphors for God express inherent truths about the nature of God, we can't limit God to our language. Yeah, I noticed that, and I am pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiiMichael Posted December 27, 2012 Share Posted December 27, 2012 How about we all just dial back the sass just a little bit and re-read that excerpt from the Catechism that Slappo so kindly quoted for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 How about we all just dial back the sass just a little bit and re-read that excerpt from the Catechism that Slappo so kindly quoted for us. Apo probably didn't appreciate being referred to as "Dude" by Basilisa. The C.C.C. quote doesn't back the claim that God is both truly father and truly mother. It references two Old Testament passages that shows that the Father has some feminine or motherly attributes. This is not the same as God is truly mother as well as truly father. He is the Father, who can care for us like a mother as a mother would but He is in fact truly the Father and not in fact truly mother. Also God does not subject His will or His essence to His creation. He did not become a man to gain more respect from humanity. He is not a respecter of persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Is there a reason why Jesus was male? Yes there is. Just as there are reasons for everything that God does. but they are His reasons, not ours. All the speculation in the world may be for fun, but it won't discern the mind of God. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) If God is truly mother can we call Him God the Mother? No, because, while God does transcend gender, He wishes to be called Father. This is how He has revealed Himself to us. Edited December 28, 2012 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiiMichael Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 God the Father is truly father. Saying that God (as triune) is truly father and not also truly mother is at affront to Genesis 1:27, "God created mankind in his image; in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." If woman is created in the image of God, and motherhood is a characteristic of woman, then it stands to reason that motherhood is a characteristic of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Perhaps man is not a reference to gender, Perhaps man is a reference to race, in the grand Scheme of things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Well, that clears everything up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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