Can A Consecrated Virgin Become A Diocesan Hermit Or Vice Versa?

[God's Beloved]

Dear Nunsense,

 

I have made it clear to the OCD in my diocese when I shared the feedback , that  it was for OCD as a corporate personality in the Church. On this forum too, it is not meant personally to any individual  and if it has come across like that then please be assured I did not mean it that way. Just because I did not write it , it does not mean I am not forgiving. I can still smell that you are blaming me of  trying to create a hierarchy or to find a special place in the church. This is not true so kindly refrain from allowing this misunderstanding to continue on the forum.

 

It is too common in the church  that when laity  speak up about  structures of sin , they are labelled  unforgiving, resentful , advised to take  psychological or spiritual help , told that  people in institutions are humans etc. etc.  But ask  what  victims  and families of abuse  feel when  they are told all this and there is double victimisation. Jesus was labelled insane when He  turned the tables in the temple , when He  called  some people hypocrites.

 

I don't need  mere advice.  As I wrote in a previous post ,  I'm going thru a  RCT for a tooth with complications . I'm  having vertigo  since it is the one close to the ear. I  am in a situation for other reasons where  there is no one to help me  concretely. People have told me how  the  religious have told them that I'm a  Solitary and the Lord alone suffices and the Lord will take care etc. I don't want to go into details  but there are real life  issues which an enclosed contemplative will not understand.

 

Recently the prioress of a monastery told me , " Do Nothing, Let Jesus Do.  Edith Stein was rejected by the Jews, rejected by her community ...........but she became a saint. You will also become a saint...........

 

I cannot express  how  angry I was. No doubt I'm  in a critical  life and death situation . But  its far from human  to give such advice to a  lone woman  who  will not  be able to live in this  world if she  does nothing.  Faith without works is dead. I understand about  trusting in God's Providence ,  passive contemplation in prayer etc. But  it is not appropriate  in situations where  action  is necessary.

 

Dear Lillabettt,

 

Thank you very much for trying to understand. Its a  healing balm. Yes,  english is not my first language hence  like most people, the   logic  is according to my native language in which I am probably thinking  , according to Asian culture  , so it is confusing to  people from Western countries. This is the very reason why the faith has been unable to inculturate  as expected in Asia.

 

 Much research has been done  on experiences of  Single adult converts  and  how many of them are abandoned to fend for themselves , taken advantage of by  people  whom they trust.  I  have  been working on this issue since more than a decade . Now it has reached such a point  because of increased persecution  as you must have  heard in the news  ,  it IS important to  let people  know  the consequences  of  baptism and create support systems for converts.  The Church often  says converts should be  inserted in their parishes, but practically it does not happen.  Many are moving from parish to parish due to persecution, don't know english to understand the  liturgy ,  join protestant sects , give up faith in God totally , even commit suicide.  Evangelisers  wish to encourage baptisms but  leave the rest to  God's Providence .  I don't think this is a balanced  approach.  It is going on because converts don't speak up. If they do, they are labelled  unfaithful  to Jesus  etc.  I have taken a strong stand  regarding these issues , I am  angry, not because I  want anything for myself, but  I feel called to  strive for justice  for converts and  for women and children who are abused.

 

Thanks for your time.  i still praise and thank Jesus for whatever I'm going thru because it has helped me to be a voice for  others who are suffering and going unnoticed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[savvy]

God's Beloved,

 

I am not sure what country you live in.  But, have you heard of the Divine Retreat Centre. They started out from Kerala, India.  I went to one of their retreats in New Jersey and it totally had a healing impact on my life and the things, I was struggling with.  I know they have retreat centres in other places, too.  I would highly recommend them.

 

God Bless your work. I will hold your intentions in my prayers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2013 by savvy

[AccountDeleted]

Dear Nunsense,

 

I have made it clear to the OCD in my diocese when I shared the feedback , that  it was for OCD as a corporate personality in the Church. On this forum too, it is not meant personally to any individual  and if it has come across like that then please be assured I did not mean it that way. Just because I did not write it , it does not mean I am not forgiving. I can still smell that you are blaming me of  trying to create a hierarchy or to find a special place in the church. This is not true so kindly refrain from allowing this misunderstanding to continue on the forum.

 

It is too common in the church  that when laity  speak up about  structures of sin , they are labelled  unforgiving, resentful , advised to take  psychological or spiritual help , told that  people in institutions are humans etc. etc.  But ask  what  victims  and families of abuse  feel when  they are told all this and there is double victimisation. Jesus was labelled insane when He  turned the tables in the temple , when He  called  some people hypocrites.

 

I don't need  mere advice.  As I wrote in a previous post ,  I'm going thru a  RCT for a tooth with complications . I'm  having vertigo  since it is the one close to the ear. I  am in a situation for other reasons where  there is no one to help me  concretely. People have told me how  the  religious have told them that I'm a  Solitary and the Lord alone suffices and the Lord will take care etc. I don't want to go into details  but there are real life  issues which an enclosed contemplative will not understand.

 

Recently the prioress of a monastery told me , " Do Nothing, Let Jesus Do.  Edith Stein was rejected by the Jews, rejected by her community ...........but she became a saint. You will also become a saint...........

 

I cannot express  how  angry I was. No doubt I'm  in a critical  life and death situation . But  its far from human  to give such advice to a  lone woman  who  will not  be able to live in this  world if she  does nothing.  Faith without works is dead. I understand about  trusting in God's Providence ,  passive contemplation in prayer etc. But  it is not appropriate  in situations where  action  is necessary.

 

 

I am sorry God's Beloved but I still don't understand everything you are saying and now it seems to me as if you are accusing me of things that I have not done or said or even think so we really aren't able to communicate very well. I don't think it is just the language though because my brother-in-law is Indian and my sister-in-law is Filipina and I can understand both of them perfectly well. I do think you have some serious emotional if not psychological issues that need to be resolved, as well as deep spiritual hurts as well. I will pray that you find relief and solace for them and healing from God.

 

This thread was not about sins in the Church to start off with and I do NOT condone any sins by priests or religious at all, which is what you seem to be accusing me of doing. As for creating a hierarchy in the Church, once again you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say about our attitude to hierarchy as opposed to the reality of hierarchy. Your own statements claim that the vocation of CV is more than the Church says it is, and both Sr Mary Catherine and Sr Laurel have tired to address this as well because it has appeared as if you are trying to make the vocation more than it is rather than rejoicing in what it is already. There is no special seal on your soul that occurs at consecration, nor is there one when religious make their vows either. This is what I was trying to address - and it seemed to me that this statement of yours, combined with your claim that CVs are somehow real Brides of Christ whereas religious are not - well that is where I got my impression from - your own posts.

 

At no point have I said that you should do nothing in a situation if you are being victimised and I would not say that as I have been in similar situations myself, although probably not life threatening ones - one did affect my health to the point where the doctor told me I had to make a change or I would be in danger health-wise but that isn't the same as a present, physical danger which you seem to be facing. I am sorry that you have had no support from either the OCD near you or from others in the Church, but do not assume that all OCD would act the same way. The 'corporate identity' that you describe does not exist in the way that you describe it, and I only say this because I have lived in 4 Carmels and not one of them would consider sin in the Church to be acceptable or for someone to be abandoned to their 'fate' by telling them just to pray or have faith and not to act to avoid persecution. You are generalizing, which is understandable based on your personal experiences, but it is not justified.

 

As for Edith Stein, she never felt rejected by her community so I don't know where you got this idea from. She loved Carmel and her sisters and they loved her and even allowed her time to write - something she did up to the very end when she was writing The Science of the Cross. She had a tough Novitiate and admitted as much but I am not sure what reference you have to make such a statement. Many people do suffer persecution in many countries and yes, there is much sin in the Church too, but there is great good in the Church as well and many holy people and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Any time a person follows Christ the way can become hard. My own family are not religious and I have lost friends over my own beliefs but that doesn't mean I blame everyone for my pain. Your attitude towards the Church and religious is very disturbing to me because it seems not to focus on sin but on the sinners. All sin is evil, not all sinners are evil - sometimes they are just weak or led astray by evil. They deserve our compassion. If you love St John of the Cross then you know that he had no animosity towards his persecutors - including his last Prior who was very mean to him until the end, when he finally realized that John was a saint and asked his forgiveness. John didn't get this response by condemning his Prior but by loving him. 'Where there is no love, put love and there will be love.' St John of the Cross. This isn't easy during times of pain and suffering I know, so do all you can physically to help yourself in this situation then try to move on a little in your heart as well, with God's help.

 

I am so sorry for your pain, I can't tell you how much so, but I know that only God's love can heal you. I know you don't want advice, but the fact is that you need it. And help too. Don't give up trying to find others near you who can help you. I will pray that this happens so that you don't feel quite so alone. There is nothing else I can do for you.

 

Ps- two additional points 1) Jesus did everything with love and compassion, even when He seemed most angry. If you can imitate Him in this then by all means be angry, but don't let anger rule you.  and 2) I am NOT an enclosed contemplative yet and I have lived a very full 60 years as in the world so I understand a lot more than you give me credit for - pain and suffering and persecution aren't reserved only for Asian countries - believe me. But we have a God who care for us more than we can possibly imagine and who IS watching over us every moment, even during times of paind and suffering and persecution. Do what you must do but don't forget to let Him help.

Edited January 2, 2013 by nunsense

[God's Beloved]

God's Beloved,

 

I am not sure what country you live in.  But, have you heard of the Divine Retreat Centre. They started out from Kerala, India.  I went to one of their retreats in New Jersey and it totally had a healing impact on my life and the things, I was struggling with.  I know they have retreat centres in other places, too.  I would highly recommend them.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Savvy for your suggestion. I've been there several years ago. Anyway, I'm in no condition or situation  to go for retreats because  what I need is  medical treatment / surgeries for  health issues. I cannot  do so alone. No  job, no support system, no insurance. Only option is to return forever to my hindu family  on condition that I cannot  live my faith publicly , so no Holy Communion, no burial when I die etc.

 

Seven years ago I bought a small apartment with loans, so that I could make it a welcome temporary home for converts and other women in distress . There were problems with leakages, seepages, fungus in walls etc which affected my health ,  I had to struggle a lot  ...........parish clergy supported  builder  for donations ,  influenced  catholic neighbours not to  support me......I really cannot elaborate. Even received threats  that my house can be taken over  in my absense by mafia.  I've produced witnesses to testify to  the truth of  what I'm facing, before Church authorities . They  say  they are not responsible for CV   whereas  at time of my consecration  there was written covenant regarding full time services in the church, I was promised  residential facilities etc. But they did not keep their word .

 

I'm upset because  if they don't want to support converts , okay . But  when I struggled for a little home for converts , they did not support me. its  not fair. I don't mind even if  I die for Jesus, but I do  want people to know how much converts suffer . I think it is sin NOT to be angry when I see so many suffer. I've already tried  very peaceful means for several years.
 

 

 

Am trying to sell this house and go where............I don't know.......... only option is to go back to my hindu family  at cost of my freedom to live my faith. People tell me I should forget the vocation and get married.   But I don't have anyone in my life  to consider that. Even if  i decide to say goodbye to CV   ,  will the Church be able to give me an annulment ..............big question marks..............answers for which even the  authorities don't  have and they remain silent. Two and half years have passed and nobody has an answer.

 

 

I can assure  readers that I am NOT trying to promote CV or create special place for myself. How can I when I cannot  even   call myself  a catholic  in freedom . Right now my baptismal commitment is at stake .

[savvy]

God's Beloved,

 

The Divine retreat centre has homes and help for those in similar situations such as yourself. You can take a look at these links, and write to them about your situation, and they might be able to help.

 

http://www.drcm.org/divine-trust/divine-homes/divine-care-center

http://www.drcm.org/divine-trust/divine-homes/st-marys-home

 

There is something called the baptism of desire, for those who cannot practise their faith in public, or in dangerous situations. God loves you and understands your situation. He does think any less of you if you are not able to do what your circumstances do not permit. 

 

 

 

[Lilllabettt]

I know of a consecrated virgin who felt duped by the authorities concerning the meaning of her vocation. She was seeking an "annulment" based on the idea that she offered herself for consecration because of her misunderstanding of what being a consecrated virgin entailed.  What she said was that they could very easily dispense her from her intention to observe a consecrated life ...  but that the consecration itself was God's act - not a human act= and it could not be undone by any human power.  For that she had to prove that  at the time of the consecration there was some impediment which prevented the consecration from ever taking place.

I don't know what ever became of her ... but come to think of it she was from Asia too - from the Philippines. I met her on a bus 8 years ago. I promised to pray for her every day, and I'm ashamed to say I didn't keep my promise.  But I will pray for you and that God comforts you.

 

 

[God's Beloved]

Dear Nunsense,

 

I'm pasting the statement from the email  in which this was said,    

 

"You know my way dearest xxxxxxx, I do not go to anyone, my secret is only JESUS and He does everything for me and I know  He will do for you too, Just let Him do dear. Edith Stein a jewish girl, a philosopher, rejected, a convert, rejected, is today a Saint. So you too will be a Saint if only  you my precious xxxxxxxxxxxx be focussed on JESUS. He loves you and He will do He is your Security and your hiding place.  Please do nothing. LET JESUS DO."

 

I understand  Carmelite spirituality. In India  I too have had contacts with several monasteries and  this kind of  statement  is very common . The first time my life was put at risk to save theirs  several years ago when a priest informed my family that there was human trafficking there. So there was persecution and i was asked to leave and i faced near death experience , I  forgave without a single word of complaint and unconditionally.  Now  again my life in  at risk , once again  somehow  OCD is involved in this injustice.  I  have discussed it privately,  got other catholics to mediate,  approached church authorities locally ,  now  I mentioned it here . If  they don't reform  then  as Jesus taught I should treat them as pagans.   I'm  condemning the sin in the mentality  of OCD  in India  . They should have learnt from one  mortal sin , but same behavior is being repeated.  I'm concerned about their souls. I knew one sister who was addicted to anti cold tablets for years.  Some years ago I asked  one prioress who founded a monastery in Africa , whether abuse of  religious by clergy happens there. She told me," Can't say what you may have to put up with".

 

I think people should know what is going on. It could happen with them.

 

 

[savvy]

God's Beloved,

 

I did meet someone who was in a Carmelite monastery in India, and she never went through the things, you speak of.  She was young and just decided that it was not for her.

 

So, there might be some truth in what Nunsense is trying to say.  You cannot change the whole world, you first have to start with your own healing.  I know this is not what you want to hear at this point in time, but unless we are set free and have complete inner peace, we cannot help others. Take care of yourself and get better first. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2013 by savvy

[Sponsa-Christi]

I know there’s a lot going on here in this thread, and admittedly I’ve also skimmed over some of the posts.

 

But one thing I’d like to say up front is that—speaking from my own personal experience—once you become a CV, you encounter a lot of misunderstandings that can be very painful in ways that are difficult to describe. So if I could make a request to readers, please remember suffering CVs in your prayers, even if their problems aren’t always easy to understand fully.

 

One post in this thread that really struck me is from Sr. Mary Catharine (and by the way, I don’t mean for my comment to sound argumentative at all—I really enjoy Sr. Mary Catharine’s posts, and I know she has a lot of respect for CVs.):

 

 

Consecration of Virgins is a very beautiful and necessary vocation for the life of the Church but I think it is important to not "puff" it up. Objectively, it is the vow of obedience that is the "highest" because it is the offering of the highest part of ourselves, our will, to God. In the vow of obedience we become more perfectly configured to Christ, who in obedience to the Father, offered his life for the world.

 

 

I actually do think that the consecration of virgins implicitly demands at least some level or expression of evangelical obedience, so I don’t think we can really say that the virginal consecration is an objectively “lesser” form of consecration just because it supposedly involves a commitment to just one the counsels, or because it supposedly is not the offering of the highest part of your human nature.

 

But even beyond this, while I think it can be useful sometimes to compare and contrast solemn religious profession with the consecration of virgins, I’m not sure that it’s even possible to determine which one of these is objectively higher. To me, this is a little like trying to compare apples and oranges.

 

Even though, obviously, both the consecration of virgins and religious professions are forms of consecrated life, they are different “charisms” and each form approaches the central “question” of consecration from a very different paradigm.

 

Beyond just emphasizing different things (e.g., religious profession has a heavier focus on discipleship of Christ, consecrated virginity has a more clearly defined spousal element, etc.); and “working” in a somewhat different way (i.e., virginal consecration conferred by a bishops versus religious profession received by a religious superior); they each originated at different eras of the Church’s history. And in writing about consecrated virginity and religious life respectively, the Church Fathers and St. Thomas Aquinas had different theological methodologies and tended to put more emphasis on different facets of the Church’s teachings.

 

That is, I don’t think the consecration of virgins is an objectively lesser vocation just because it doesn’t quite “fit” in with St. Thomas’ system for considering religious life. Likewise, I think it could be supposed that the Church Fathers, working from within their own theological conventions, might have actually thought that religious profession as we know it today would have been “less” than consecrated virginity, since religious profession is “only” (and please note the scare quotes—this is a hypothetical “only”!) a commitment from a certain time forward instead of the continued perseverance in an evangelical virtue which one has maintained for one’s whole life.

 

Of course, we always need to be careful about using sacramental terminology to describe non-sacraments, since it can be easy to slip from acceptable metaphor into outright error. And it is very important to be able to distinguish between personal theologies and the arguments of professional theologians, the opinions of various doctors of the Church, and the authoritative teaching of the magisterium.

 

But in general, I’m not altogether sure that we need to worry too much about the theology of consecrated virginity being “puffed up.” When the Church Fathers—like Sts. Cyprian, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, etc.—wrote about consecrated virgins, they used some tremendously exalted language. If they were worried about anything being puffed up, it was the pride of the individual consecrated virgins themselves (which is of course something that CVs will always need to be careful about), and not the Church’s understanding of the objective nature of their vocation.

 

My own opinion is that the focus should not be on bringing the theology of consecrated virginity more “down to earth,” but rather on discerning how today’s consecrated virgins can actually manifest their high calling in their every-day lives in a way that is truly ordered towards the benefit of the Church as a whole.

[cmaD2006]

God's Beloved ... agreeing with savvy here.  I read the excerpt from the email and I read it as encouragement to you to keep hanging on to Jesus, and to *wait* upon him for guidance on when to act.

 

There are a number of people on the board who have in one way or another had difficult experiences -- may or may not have reached the same degree to what you may have experienced.  Each person is different in the way experienced is lived, so even ranking abusive situations is tough.

 

Jesus is an awe-some healer.  Please depend on him.  Work on your own healing (through whatever is best -- psychological counseling, spiritual direction, retreats, etc).  Knowing what my own history is, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that He, our Savior and Lord, will see you through this. 

[God's Beloved]

CMariadiaz , are you Spanish ?  Read your signature. You must be proud of your  Teresian heritage .

 

What you are saying is understandable.  I know OCD spirituality not only in theory but tried to live it. It is only since recently  that I have begun questioning  how much Carmelites  themselves  understand  or live it before  trying to spread it. Of course that happens with every vocation including CV.

 

Every charism  serves better if it is adapted  according to the signs of the times.  The enclosure for nuns but not for male monastics ,  the  preaching  of a passive approach to  real life issues  ..............is what I've begun questioning . e.g.  Laity are called to be leaven in the world to transform the economic, cultural, political spheres. But  I've heard laity making statements like " When you do nothing, God takes care of your needs " etc. which I've not heard  in non-Carmelite parishes.  Spiritualities have the potential to transform society for better or for worse. They have been used  by clergy  to keep laity in the pray, pay, obey mode .

 

There are serious environmental issues in  neighbouring parishes  where  people have opposed  the creation of a dumping-ground for garbage , most of which comes from  our parish run by Carmelites.  People there are falling sick and dying.  Activists have same grievances  about the  OCD clergy who have befriended the powerful civic and political leaders,  leading to the  risk to lives in our neighbouring parishes.

 

I'm  a  counseling psychologist  myself and  know from interaction with several women in cloisters in  several monasteries , that  the motivations for joining  are  often related to escapism , security , even psychosis. There are genuine vocations too . The religious in India are very wealthy  and secure compared to those in the Western countries. It has taken me decades to come to a general  opinion about  OCD men and women  after interacting with them in various situations, places and  their members across the globe.

 

 Regarding the  excerpt from the email ,  I understand she may have meant what you say. What I objected is the 'context' and ' timing'  of that statement which was made during a  personal meeting as well as by email.  That was the time when  I was crying for 'urgent' medical attention ,  bills to pay , life and death situation etc.  That  'do nothing' was in the context  of my plans to take the injustice to higher authorities in the Church.  Spiritual advise was being used to suppress me with sweet words. 

 

FYI , even the Archbishop  here  apologized  to me for the isolation, marginalization,  blows  I have faced in the OCD parish  and hoped  it would not be repeated.  Such an apology has not come even  once from any of the  OCD women or men  in so many years  .  I forgave unconditionally  to save their image  . But now I realise  I need to speak  up  , for the common good.  In general  I've seen OCD tend to become defensive,  spiritualize issues.

 

Even here , if  I wish to become  very defensive, I can  pick up  statements by posters which indicate they  are not in touch with reality or need  psychological and spiritual help.  But let me be humble and acknowledge that I need help. I  am in no position practically to lock my house and go for a week long retreat  or a holiday.  Remaining in the house without work is itself  too much  retreat already.  To get healing from the  near-death experience several years ago, I  had myself  approached experts for therapy. Being a doctor  I have no qualms about this.  I've been informing the archbishop that I need  referral to receive counseling  , but  he said I'm myself a counselor  and no further comment. Others  who know me  through interactions say  I'm alright ---considering  how I'm managing in spite of the severity of  situation in several dimensions of present life. So I really wonder  whose  judgement  I should believe. I've been crying for help but left alone . Even Jesus and Mother Mary did not face the Cross and suffering all alone. Why do so many converts and other humans have to face it alone. Can bear ANY amount of suffering - even death -----but can't  face it alone  in the world . Devout catholics are telling me to just leave the  city, the church , even Jesus Christ and go back to my hindu family.

 

When there is no option, one has to trust in the Lord,  wait for the prompting of the Spirit  , before taking any action. Spiritually one can wait passively  in an impasse  for years  if one is in a monastery . But for a woman living alone in the world with real life  human needs for survival,  one cannot advise to remain passive for years. 

 

I  joined  phatmass to give me a distraction while going thru the RCT for my tooth  which is giving me spells of vertigo and some sense of disorientation . I'm simply traumatized because of it and side-effects of medication .Maybe I should  not have joined  and now  should give myself a break from phatmass  till  my tooth recovers. Thank you for your concern. Normally I wouldn't share some personal matters in public. I feel called to do so  to create awareness of what converts go through. Please pray for me.

 

Readers, please excuse me for moving out of this thread .Please do not write to me here because I may not read it. Thanks !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sister_Laurel]

I have serious objection to the above : I intended  this to be a friendly discussion , but  AS USUAL  persons belonging to Powerful   Religious Institutes  are feeling so threatened  that  they are reading  'selectively' and accusing me of what  I am myself fighting against in the Church . Religious  in my country have EVERYTHING  : roof,  Eucharist in their convents, community ,  guaranteed formation, education , spiritual retreats , resources , libraries ,  Jobs in the church, security in times of sickness, public recognition in the church and the world, social security etc. etc.

 

What does a CV have ? We don't even BELONG  to the neatly categorized or Church dissected into Clergy, Religious and Laity.  There are no prayers for us in the church although we  spend every moment of our lives  in prayer and penance for the local and universal church and world. No encouragement, but only ridicule . The good we say or do  is not  highlighted , but  even if there is a small human error  it is made into a mountain. A religious woman  shamelessly  pushes a CV aside and breaks the queue to receive Holy Communion , only because she belongs to a powerful Institute and is wearing a habit . Religious priests  make sure to  insult CV from the pulpit  and make it impossible to serve the parish. Mind you, I live in a parish run by  Carmelite monastics [OCD] .

. . .

 

I can write lots about the ARROGANCE of  Religious. 

 

. . .

 

 

This thread  has been ONE MORE INSTANCE OF ARROGANT RELIGIOUS POUNCING UPON  A WEAK  , HELPLESS  CV , Probably the West over the east, Institutions over person, Older over younger , Cradle catholic over convert , more theologically educated over lesser theologically educated , Studied knowledge over charismatic gift of creative theology etc. etc.  Even though I'm a CV , I am first  a human being. I don't feel like a human from the way religious make me a scapegoat again and again ...............

 

i know  God has called me to write prophetically and that I have to bear the consequences.  Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I am not sorry for what I have written about religious life. I mean it.  I  will differentiate between religious who take vows of  poverty and chastity  and don't live them and those who do live them. I will also differentiate between CVs who  claim to be Brides of Christ but  do not have  the well-spring of Compassion and live selfish  lives and those who do have love and compassion for others.

 

The Holy Father often speaks of the Dictatorship of Relativism . In such dictatorship  people see no difference between  an engagement and a marriage , truth is relativised by saying that all perspectives are equal  hence all religions are equal bearers of Truth. As far as i know the Second Vatican Council  from which the Code of Canon law 1983 is derived  clearly mention equality of dignity of the baptised . A cardinal , a  bishop , priest , deacon,  religious , cv, lay person, adult, child --ALL have equality of dignity.

 

A bishop, priest, deacon each have equality of dignity and call to holiness , but the degrees of their consecration is accepted. Why ?

 

. . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am sincerely sorry you have been mistreated in any way. However, at this point your anger, especially at Religious, may be getting in your way as much as anything else. After all, this is a message board where you neither know all the people posting, nor do they know who you are except for what you post here. To see "arrogant" members of "powerful religious institutes" somehow beating up on you rather than simply clarifying or contending with a few points you have made is disproportionate at best. If you carry this attitude with you when you meet religious, priests, etc face to face I don't doubt some treat you with kid gloves for instance.

 

A couple of points you make should be clarified. First, religious congregations have everything you mention because their Sisters earn the money and contribute it to their larger religious family. They are not given all these things by the Church per se nor by society (unless of course they take advantage of the access to social security, etc which is available to everyone with specific needs and qualifications). I know that in the US this is not well-understood. Typically folks believe the Church supports religious, provides them with jobs, insurance, etc. But actually, their congregations provide these things (though most Sisters find their own jobs today) and individual Sisters allow this to occur by contributing their contracted salaries, stipends, etc. As the median age of many congregations rises it becomes more and more difficult for younger Sisters to support retired Sisters and also the ministries the congregation carries out. (And what is often not understood is that these ministries are paid for BY the congregations, not by the Church more generally.)

 

Similarly diocesan hermits professed and consecrated under canon 603 are entirely self-supporting. The Church provides NOTHING for their upkeep, living arrangements, insurance, cost of retreats, education, formation, etc, etc. We pay for all of these ourselves. Occasionally we hear of some hermit whose diocese has included them on the diocesan insurance or burial policies, but this is exceptional. At perpetual profession we sign a waiver of claim which frees the diocese of any claims we might make for support, reimbursement, etc. While I believe there may need to be SOME changes in this situation as hermits age, (they remain hermits no matter their age or health) etc, in general I believe it is a good thing, especially since we have folks who might approach dioceses with petitions to be admitted to vows under canon 603 as a kind of sinecure. We MUST prevent this from ever being the case. It would not be good for the vocation generally nor for individual hermits themselves if there was some doubt about motivations in approaching the diocese for admittance to vows.

 

It seems to me that CV's are in essentially the same position --- at least as regards the Church itself. Cultures differ of course, but in point of fact, I would suggest anyone promised housing, income, security of job, etc prior to becoming a CV, hermit, etc, should be very skeptical and cautious. Canonists are very clear in their own cautions that such promises may not be kept over time, especially as diocesan personnel changes or clarifications come from Rome.

 

Secondly, the Church is not divided hierarchically into ordained, religious, and lay. Hierarchically there are only two divisions, clerical and lay. In terms of hierarchical divisions religious, hermits and CV's, unless they are ordained, are LAY. The word lay ALSO has a vocational sense however and vocationally the Church is divided into lay, consecrated (which includes a number of different vocations including CV's, hermits and religious), and ordained. It is especially important to remember this vocational division is NOT hierarchical. The consecration of religious is not greater than the consecration of CV's or hermits. As noted already, the fact that a person has a vow of obedience does not make their vocation higher or harder or any of these entirely worldly ways of gauging things. They are different from other vocations, but the consecration is exhaustive in all of the cases.

 

Please note I have addressed these points as I would anyone making the assertions you have. I don't think it is helpful or respectful to you to treat you as a victim (a poor, weak CV!) or as someone incapable of taking part in a reasoned discussion, and especially not as someone with some sort of inferior vocation, intellectual capacity, etc. I do personally find the dichotomies you have set up (academic knowledge vs charismatic knowledge, convert vs non-convert, religious vs CV's, etc, etc) to be divisive and problematical and I hope you will find a way to cease adverting to a perspective which divvies things up as you have. The irony is, to the extent you divide things as you have, you have done precisely the thing you despise others for doing. I have also skipped responding to a number of points that could be clarified, so yes, my response is selective just as other responses were also selective --- not to put you at a disadvantage, but merely to limit the length and scope of my own post.

 

I wish you Christ's own Peace,

 

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

http:notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

Edited January 4, 2013 by SRLAUREL

[cmaD2006]

CMariadiaz , are you Spanish ?  Read your signature. You must be proud of your  Teresian heritage .

 

What you are saying is understandable.  I know OCD spirituality not only in theory but tried to live it. It is only since recently  that I have begun questioning  how much Carmelites  themselves  understand  or live it before  trying to spread it. Of course that happens with every vocation including CV.

 

Every charism  serves better if it is adapted  according to the signs of the times.  The enclosure for nuns but not for male monastics ,  the  preaching  of a passive approach to  real life issues  ..............is what I've begun questioning . e.g.  Laity are called to be leaven in the world to transform the economic, cultural, political spheres. But  I've heard laity making statements like " When you do nothing, God takes care of your needs " etc. which I've not heard  in non-Carmelite parishes.  Spiritualities have the potential to transform society for better or for worse. They have been used  by clergy  to keep laity in the pray, pay, obey mode .

 

There are serious environmental issues in  neighbouring parishes  where  people have opposed  the creation of a dumping-ground for garbage , most of which comes from  our parish run by Carmelites.  People there are falling sick and dying.  Activists have same grievances  about the  OCD clergy who have befriended the powerful civic and political leaders,  leading to the  risk to lives in our neighbouring parishes.

 

I'm  a  counseling psychologist  myself and  know from interaction with several women in cloisters in  several monasteries , that  the motivations for joining  are  often related to escapism , security , even psychosis. There are genuine vocations too . The religious in India are very wealthy  and secure compared to those in the Western countries. It has taken me decades to come to a general  opinion about  OCD men and women  after interacting with them in various situations, places and  their members across the globe.

 

 Regarding the  excerpt from the email ,  I understand she may have meant what you say. What I objected is the 'context' and ' timing'  of that statement which was made during a  personal meeting as well as by email.  That was the time when  I was crying for 'urgent' medical attention ,  bills to pay , life and death situation etc.  That  'do nothing' was in the context  of my plans to take the injustice to higher authorities in the Church.  Spiritual advise was being used to suppress me with sweet words. 

 

FYI , even the Archbishop  here  apologized  to me for the isolation, marginalization,  blows  I have faced in the OCD parish  and hoped  it would not be repeated.  Such an apology has not come even  once from any of the  OCD women or men  in so many years  .  I forgave unconditionally  to save their image  . But now I realise  I need to speak  up  , for the common good.  In general  I've seen OCD tend to become defensive,  spiritualize issues.

 

Even here , if  I wish to become  very defensive, I can  pick up  statements by posters which indicate they  are not in touch with reality or need  psychological and spiritual help.  But let me be humble and acknowledge that I need help. I  am in no position practically to lock my house and go for a week long retreat  or a holiday.  Remaining in the house without work is itself  too much  retreat already.  To get healing from the  near-death experience several years ago, I  had myself  approached experts for therapy. Being a doctor  I have no qualms about this.  I've been informing the archbishop that I need  referral to receive counseling  , but  he said I'm myself a counselor  and no further comment. Others  who know me  through interactions say  I'm alright ---considering  how I'm managing in spite of the severity of  situation in several dimensions of present life. So I really wonder  whose  judgement  I should believe. I've been crying for help but left alone . Even Jesus and Mother Mary did not face the Cross and suffering all alone. Why do so many converts and other humans have to face it alone. Can bear ANY amount of suffering - even death -----but can't  face it alone  in the world . Devout catholics are telling me to just leave the  city, the church , even Jesus Christ and go back to my hindu family.

 

When there is no option, one has to trust in the Lord,  wait for the prompting of the Spirit  , before taking any action. Spiritually one can wait passively  in an impasse  for years  if one is in a monastery . But for a woman living alone in the world with real life  human needs for survival,  one cannot advise to remain passive for years. 

 

I  joined  phatmass to give me a distraction while going thru the RCT for my tooth  which is giving me spells of vertigo and some sense of disorientation . I'm simply traumatized because of it and side-effects of medication .Maybe I should  not have joined  and now  should give myself a break from phatmass  till  my tooth recovers. Thank you for your concern. Normally I wouldn't share some personal matters in public. I feel called to do so  to create awareness of what converts go through. Please pray for me.

 

Readers, please excuse me for moving out of this thread .Please do not write to me here because I may not read it. Thanks !

 

 

God's Beloved:

 

 

:) I am of puertorican descent, but have traveled and lived in two other Latin American countries.  I am actually Ignatian in the way I pray, and really have no attraction to the Carmelites.  In fact honestly, I'd never would enter a Carmelite cloister.  A Poor Claire -- maybe (if I was called to an enclosed/contemplative lifestyle).  Franciscan -- maybe.  Dominican?  Probably not (but more likely than Carmelite).  A community that had a heavy Ignaitian bent -- much more likely.

 

What I said is not "Carmelite" (I assume that's OCD???) per se.  It is from my experience.

 

And I think it was not clear what the email you referred to was a reference to.  Who you were referring to was not clear at all -- and it may have caused even more confusion.  I realize that english is not your native tongue and that may be part of it ... it may also be the way the written internet text came through (it sometimes takes a few read throughs to realize that a written text is ambiguous).

 

All Savvy and I wanted to say was this -- to us, reading your posts, it seems as though you have been deeply wounded by certain experiences of Church, to the point of having experience spiritual abuse.  You're not alone ... and all we are saying (and I speak through personal experience) is that believe it or not, Christ does help in the healing process.  Please trust Jesus in this (even if you end up not trusting other spiritual authority due to what has happened).

 

We'll be praying for you and I do hope you do end up reading this.

 

 

-- cma

[Sister_Laurel]

 I've been informing the archbishop that I need  referral to receive counseling  , but  he said I'm myself a counselor  and no further comment. Others  who know me  through interactions say  I'm alright ---considering  how I'm managing in spite of the severity of  situation in several dimensions of present life. So I really wonder  whose  judgement  I should believe. I've been crying for help but left alone . Even Jesus and Mother Mary did not face the Cross and suffering all alone. Why do so many converts and other humans have to face it alone. Can bear ANY amount of suffering - even death -----but can't  face it alone  in the world . Devout catholics are telling me to just leave the  city, the church , even Jesus Christ and go back to my hindu family.

 

When there is no option, one has to trust in the Lord,  wait for the prompting of the Spirit  , before taking any action. Spiritually one can wait passively  in an impasse  for years  if one is in a monastery . But for a woman living alone in the world with real life  human needs for survival,  one cannot advise to remain passive for years.

 

Perhaps I don't really understand your situation, so pardon my questions. However, are you not responsible for finding and securing your own medical and psychological care? (Perhaps your Bishop merely meant you are capable of assessing your own need here and self-referring.) In the US this (securing one's own care) is certainly the way it works for CV's and diocesan hermits. A Bishop does not need to refer us for medical care (in fact, I would be hesitant to count on this at all and despite the fact he is my legitimate superior, I would not expect him to have his fingers in this particular pie beyond knowing of my needs). Meanwhile I am certain my own Bishop would be concerned if I showed an inability to take care of myself and secure the care I needed without his assistance. While I am sorry the burden of doing so is so very onerous for you it seems to me to be the same burden all who are consecrated under canons 603 or 604 ordinarily face. Would you do better in a less caste-dominated society? Is it possible for you to move to a different country?

 

Trying hard to understand your situation.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com