Can A Consecrated Virgin Become A Diocesan Hermit Or Vice Versa?

[God's Beloved]

 This discussion is like a Dream come true. Since long I've been wanting to discuss with  persons experienced in the spiritual life,  knowledgeable in theology  and also those who are seasoned in the consecrated life .

 

THANKS TO EACH ONE OF YOU !!! :bananarap:

Thanks for elaborating. I think I understand what you are saying and I still disagree that there are gradations in the effect of the consecration. What you may be trying to say is one person lives and expresses the graces of consecration either differently, or in other cases less clearly and sometimes even less well than another. I don't think we are speaking of the effect of the consecration however, but rather differences in the nature and quality of the response TO that consecration. If we speak of gradations of effect then that is essentially the same as speaking of distinctions in degree of consecration. The entire idea of "gradations" apart from the person's own response is one the Church has moved away from and yet, we have a constant temptation to return to it. There are a couple of other aspects to a vocation which may be more helpful that speaking of gradations in the effect of the consecration. Those include charism and mission and I refer to those more below.

 

Well , my idea of variation in the effect of the consecration  comes from a context  where CV is considered inferior to religious life  in most parts of the world , by  the hierarchy , religious and laity. Hence there are CVs who may feel that we have  tried to give ourselves completely to  God and the service of the church  according to the  charism  of CV------but  this is not valued by  rest of the church.  The issue  here is not  a lack of response to the consecration  on behalf of the  candidate , but  the  lack of  co- operation of  the  hierarchy and laity  to live the vocation fully.

 

Spiritually I know  a person  can be a channel of God's grace to the church and world even  if the vocation is lived in discretion. But the Sign value   will not be expressed. According to me this is a much desired aspect of the vocation according to the Rite itself. [ Sign value is important to this charism of virginity. e.g. In dealing with youth , I've come across some who strayed from the path of purity  but shared how they were touched by encountering another young person  who is committed to virginity for her entire life  , while living and working in the same world  with the same temptations etc. ] Naturally this witness is specific to the charism of CVs who do not live in the security of a convent or monastery. The term Sacramentality seemed more appropriate because the witness of CV brings about a transformation in the lives of other youth. It is more than a Sign.

 

Regarding Sacramentality as mother  I just thought of Bl Mother Teresa of Calcutta.  Motherhood shined  in her life and transformed people to reach out to the destitute. I have not seen such a wellspring of compassion in the lives of many CVs.  She was more than a Sign . Her life was Sacramental.

 

Perhaps thats one of the reasons we say the Church is a Sacrament of salvation.

 

Maybe  instead of degree of consecration  what happens could be termed growth stages in appropriating the  grace of the consecration. In religious life there are various stages before final profession.    in the vocation of CV ,  her  life shines most as a young virgin who is first privately  resolved to remain  a virgin for love of Christ. She grows to ask for consecration to become a bride , often with motivations of gaining spiritual consolation. As she matures ,  she embraces the church family , serves it ,  thus becoming a mother.

 

These stages of growth from virgin to bride to mother  depend on the co operation between the CV, the Bishop and the Church community.

 

 

 

 

 I know that some CV's speak of an ontological change with the character of a seal taking place, but at this time there is no place for this in the theology of consecrated life per se. Definitely CV's are called into a stable state of life and are known as brides of Christ; this is a public identity with public rights and obligations, but the attempt to distinguish the consecration of the CV from that received in perpetual profession by the hermit or religious is problematical at best unless we use other terms (graces, mission, charism).

 

To see the difference between the prayer of consecration in the rite of consecration of virgins and the rite of religious profession , I'm trying to put the links to these rites and  google books on liturgy describing the theology of these rites , writings of  the Holy Father , etc. on a word document and uploading it  in few minutes or hours.

 

Shall write more . New to Phatmass , so a bit slow. Sometimes the Edit feature disappears or the Quote boxes don't seem to split  or can't write outside the Quote box etc. Could these be related to an older version of firefox browser on a Windows 8 ? Also , it seems multiple links are not getting saved in one post ?

 

Dealing with a sudden attack by red ants in my room and an ongoing RCT for a tooth with some complications. Pls pray for me!

 

 

 

Some suggest the difference comes from the fact that God consecrates the person, that is they don't consecrate themselves via vows as religious do, but that ignores two facts: 1) perpetual profession of vows (the dedication NOT consecration of self via vows) is accompanied and completed by a prayer of solemn consecration which does what the prayer in the Rite of consecration of CV's living in the world does. There is no suggestion that it does anything less or more than any other act of consecration (I don't think it can literally be called a marriage for instance), 2) the graces attending this consecration may differ where the consecration does not. For instance I am called to live out the charism of the silence of solitude, but I am not necessarily called to live out charisms of bride or mother; I am graced as is necessary to live out my consecration. Consider that one diocesan hermit may be called to some degree of ministry while a second one may be called to complete reclusion. They are both 100% hermits and we can presume they are also both entirely responsive to the graces of their vocations and thus to the "effects of consecration," but they are called to different expressions of eremitical life and thus, to some extent different vocations despite the same eremitical consecration. Similarly (referring to CV's only) a woman called to be a CV living in the world does NOT have precisely the same graces (or even the same vocation despite an identical consecration) as a woman called to be a CV in the monastery.

 

Should the second woman leave her monastic life, she cannot simply conclude she is called to live as a CV living in the world. She leaves the consecrated state of life in leaving the monastery and would need to discern a separate vocation to canon 604. In the past some have written and thought about treating religious profession and consecration as a Sacrament which imparts an unchangeable character to the one solemnly professed. That is not part of our theology of consecration however; the emphasis on initiation into a stable state of life accompanied by specific graces, marked by a specific charism and mission, makes this unnecessary and takes care of the need proponents were trying to address in this alternate way.

 

all my best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

 

[God's Beloved]

 I'm elaborating on  the difference between the consecration of virgins and  rite of religious profession, due to which  the former has always been considered permanent  in the history of the church   while the rite of religious profession of simple vows  is not considered permanent  :

 

 

a.  http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/

abrideofchrist has mentioned some differences  between the prayer of consecration of virgins and the prayer of blessing or consecration of the professed for religious.

I will try to attach a word document with links to the google books containing the rite of profession and other references.

 

b.  The consecration of a virgin can only be conferred by a bishop  whereas  religious profession may be presided over by a priest.

 

c.  Consecration of virgins is NOT Religious life but a Diocese-based life. Perhaps in future the Church might consider  giving the consecration of virgins the status as sacrament as it was in the  first 12 centuries ?  I am not implying that the Church should do so, but the similarity  with sacraments  gives enough ground  for some theologians to think along those lines. Personally I  keep a neutral position .

 

d. Barbara mentioned that only the Church is Bride of Christ and CV is mentioned in some places as 'spouse of Christ' . Following are ref to the title given to CVs

 

In the Examination of the candidate in the rite of consecration of a virgin, the bishop asks :

 

“Are you resolved  to accept solemn consecration  as a bride of our Lord Jesus Christ,  the Son of God?”

 

Hence she is not just an image of the Bride of Christ the Church , but is gifted with the title and vocation of the Church  as virgin, bride, mother.

 

e.The Epiklesis in the rite of profession of religious mentions:

Send the fire of your Holy Spirit into the heart of this, your daughter, to keep alive within her the holy desire He has given her……………….

 

 The Epiklesis in the rite of consecration of virgins  mentions  the Gift of the Holy Spirit

 

 Through the gift of your Spirit, Lord,

  give them modesty with right judgment,

 kindness with true wisdom,

  gentleness with strength of character,   

freedom with the grace of chastity.

 Give them the warmth of love,

 to love you above all others.

  Make their lives deserve our praise,

 without seeking to be praised.

 May they give you glory  by holiness of action and purity of heart.

  May they love you and fear you;

 may they love you and serve you. 

 

I  liked the explanation given  here regarding the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#The_seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit

St. Thomas Aquinas says that four of these gifts (wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and counsel) direct the intellect, while the other three gifts (fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord) direct the will toward God.

 

In some respects, the gifts are similar to the virtues, but a key distinction is that the virtues operate under the impetus of human reason (prompted by grace), whereas the gifts operate under the impetus of the Holy Spirit; the former can be used when one wishes, but the latter operate only when the Holy Spirit wishes. In the case of Fortitude, the gift has, in Latin and English, the same name as a virtue, which it is related to but from which it must be distinguished.

 

In Summa Theologica II.II, Thomas Aquinas asserts the following correspondences between the seven Capital Virtues and the seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit:[11]

 

        The gift of wisdom corresponds to the virtue of charity.

        The gifts of understanding and knowledge correspond to the virtue of faith.

        The gift of counsel (right judgment) corresponds to the virtue of prudence.

        The gift of fortitude corresponds to the virtue of courage.

        The gift of fear of the Lord corresponds to the virtue of hope.

        The gift of Reverence corresponds to the virtue of justice.

 

To the virtue of temperance, no Gift is directly assigned; but the gift of fear can be taken as such, since fear drives somebody to restrict himself from forbidden pleasures.

--------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aren't these gifts very similar/ same as mentioned in the prayer of consecration of virgins ?  I did not find this in  rite of religious profession. If there are versions I've not seen, please feel free to enlighten me.

 

f] If the consecration in the rite for  CVs and  Profession of religious/ monastics/ hermits  is same then  monastics would not need to receive  Consecration of virgins after Solemn Profession.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the SEAL  :  what the CCC says about  rite of Confirmation is SO similar to  rite of Consecration of virgins . It may be considered authoritative till I gather other sources from ancient  Church history to present here.

 

CCC : http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a2.htm

II. THE SIGNS AND THE RITE OF CONFIRMATION

 

1293 In treating the rite of Confirmation, it is fitting to consider the sign of anointing and what it signifies and imprints: a spiritual seal.

Anointing, in Biblical and other ancient symbolism, is rich in meaning: oil is a sign of abundance and joy;¹⁰³ it cleanses (anointing before and after a bath) and limbers (the anointing of athletes and wrestlers); oil is a sign of healing, since it is soothing to bruises and wounds;¹⁰⁴ and it makes radiant with beauty, health, and strength.

1294 Anointing with oil has all these meanings in the sacramental life. The pre-baptismal anointing with the oil of catechumens signifies cleansing and strengthening; the anointing of the sick expresses healing and comfort. The post-baptismal anointing with sacred chrism in Confirmation and ordination is the sign of consecration. By Confirmation Christians, that is, those who are anointed, share more completely in the mission of Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Holy Spirit with which he is filled, so that their lives may give off "the aroma of Christ."¹⁰⁵

1295 By this anointing the confirmand receives the "mark," the seal of the Holy Spirit. A seal is a symbol of a person, a sign of personal authority, or ownership of an object.¹⁰⁶ Hence soldiers were marked with their leader's seal and slaves with their master's. A seal authenticates a juridical act or document and occasionally makes it secret.¹⁰⁷

1296 Christ himself declared that he was marked with his Father's seal.¹⁰⁸ Christians are also marked with a seal: "It is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has commissioned us; he has put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."¹⁰⁹This seal of the Holy Spirit marks our total belonging to Christ, our enrollment in his service for ever, as well as the promise of divine protection in the great eschatological trial.¹¹⁰

 

The celebration of Confirmation

1297 The consecration of the sacred chrism is an important action that precedes the celebration of Confirmation, but is in a certain way a part of it. It is the bishop who, in the course of the Chrism Mass of Holy Thursday, consecrates the sacred chrism for his whole diocese. In some Eastern Churches this consecration is even reserved to the patriarch:

The liturgy of Antioch expresses the epiclesis for the consecration of the sacred chrism (myron) in this way: "[Father . . . send your Holy Spirit] on us and on this oil which is before us and consecrate it, so that it may be for all who are anointed and marked with it holy myron, priestly myron, royal myron, anointing with gladness, clothing with light, a cloak of salvation, a spiritual gift, the sanctification of souls and bodies, imperishable happiness, the indelible seal, a buckler of faith, and a fearsome helmet against all the works of the adversary."

1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation begins with the renewal of baptismal promises and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.¹¹¹ When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.¹¹²

1299 In the Roman Rite the bishop extends his hands over the whole group of the confirmands. Since the time of the apostles this gesture has signified the gift of the Spirit. The bishop invokes the outpouring of the Spirit in these words:

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by water and the Holy Spirit
you freed your sons and daughters from sin
and gave them new life.
Send your Holy Spirit upon them
to be their helper and guide.
Give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of right judgment and courage,
the spirit of knowledge and reverence.
Fill them with the spirit of wonder and awe in your presence.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.¹¹³

1300 The essential rite of the sacrament follows. In the Latin rite, "the sacrament of Confirmation is conferred through the anointing with chrism on the forehead, which is done by the laying on of the hand, and through the words: 'Accipe signaculum doni Spiritus Sancti' [Be sealed with the Gift of the Holy Spirit.]."¹¹⁴ In the Eastern Churches of Byzantine rite, after a prayer of epiclesis, the more significant parts of the body are anointed with myron: forehead, eyes, nose, ears, lips, chest, back, hands, and feet. Each anointing is accompanied by the formula SfragiV dwreaV PneumatoV ¢Agiou (Signaculum doni Spiritus Sancti): "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit."¹¹⁵

1301 The sign of peace that concludes the rite of the sacrament signifies and demonstrates ecclesial communion with the bishop and with all the faithful.¹¹⁶

 

III. THE EFFECTS OF CONFIRMATION

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";¹¹⁷
- it unites us more firmly to Christ;
- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;¹¹⁸
- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:¹¹⁹

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.¹²⁰

 

^{[according to canon 604, the virgin is Consecrated to God, mystically espoused to Christ and dedicated to the service of the church. The effect as in confirmation is seen]}

1304 Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the "character," which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.¹²¹

1305 This "character" perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and "the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi Ex officio)."¹²²

 

 

These effects are also seen in the consecration of virgins.

 

I'm unable to attach a Word file to the post hence I'll try to paste the content in the following post. Hope it allows so many links to be pasted !

 

 

 

[God's Beloved]

1. 1988 Homily from Mass of the Consecration of a Virgin by Card.Ratzinger

2. DE BENEDICTIONE ET CONSECRATIONE VIRGINUM : This is the Latin text of the Pre-Vatican II Rite of consecration of virgins, used  in monasteries. It is interesting . One may translate it using Google translator .    http://translate.google.com/

3. Older Post-Vat II translation of the Rite in the Roman Pontifical

4. Yr 2011 translation of the Rite in the Roman Pontifical

5. http://ocvar.8m.net/Directorio_Rafaela.doc   : This link takes you to an Excellent formation doc from OCV Argentina.  My personal opinion is that it is balanced, realistic , deep, advanced , clear [ more in line with my own approach to the vocation !] . Very different from the formation material  provided by english speaking USACV.  One can translate the doc. on google translate by entering the  link.

 

6.http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FHZBFvLa5SkC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=you+make+the+human+family+your+bride+radiant+with+your+own+likeness,&source=bl&ots=MWZ17Mh19v&sig=UzSBJXuZH366Qm0QMZ7bDyieYJ4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mYDhUNWnGYjPrQfCnICQCg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=you%20make%20the%20human%20family%20your%20bride%20radiant%20with%20your%20own%20likeness%2C&f=false

Point 72 gives one version of solemn blessing or consecration of the professed

Point 73  mentions the ring  as signifying ‘Betrothal’

Point 159 gives another solemn prayer of blessing or consecration of the professed.

 

7.http://books.google.co.in/books?id=rkC6RW6G8dQC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=solemn+prayer+of+blessing+or+consecration+of+the+professed&source=bl&ots=NmY6r1qvyj&sig=-z0A1Pa_Udn-Bm5nGlbfBP2IMpo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IojhUOT5JcH5rAeS54H4DA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=solemn%20prayer%20of%20blessing%20or%20consecration%20of%20the%20professed&f=false

Pg 331: mentions the liturgy of consecration of virgins as a theological locus for the theology of marriage.

Pg 337 : pt 3 : authentic meaning of the rite as the celebration of marriage between Christ and the consecrated virgin.

Ref pg 339 : pt 4 : Theological content

 

8. http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P1X.HTM

 Can. 604 §1 The order of virgins is also to be added to these forms of consecrated life. Through their pledge to follow Christ more closely, virgins are consecrated to God, mystically espoused to Christ and dedicated to the service of the Church, when the diocesan Bishop consecrates them according to the approved liturgical rite.

§2 Virgins can be associated together to fulfil their pledge more faithfully, and to assist each other to serve the Church in a way that befits their state.

[ The term mystical espousal and not betrothal is used in the code of canon law . See also Latin text below ]

 

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/LAT0010/_P1X.HTM

Can. 604 - § 1.  Hisce vitae consecratae formis accedit ordo virginum quae, sanctum

 

propositum emittentes Christum pressius sequendi, ab Episcopo dioecesano iuxte probatum

 

ritum liturgicum Deo consecrantur, Christo Dei Filio mystice desponsantur et Ecclesiae

 

servitio dedicantur. 

 

§ 2.  Ad suum propositum fidelius servandum et ad servitium Ecclesiae, proprio statui

 

consonum, mutuo adiutorio perficiendum, virgines consociari possunt.

 

 

9. Yr 306 AD : the Council of Elvira in Spain imposed sanctions on virgins who had been unfaithful to their consecration to God .

Yr 314 AD :Council of Ancyra declared that consecrated virgins who marry were guilty of bigamy.

Yr 364 AD : The civil law, under Valens, declared that anyone who married a consecrated virgin was subject to the death penalty.

 

 

All this is because the Consecration of virgins was considered a sacrament with permanent effect  in the Early Church.   The Church has  moved towards more and more leniency over the centuries.

 

 

 

[Sister_Laurel]

While I agree with a lot of what you have said, I would have to disagree here.  The consecration to a life of virginity is lifelong, whether received by a nun or by a woman in the world.  Hence one of the practical problems discussed at the 2008 international conference in Rome happened to be the problem of Benedictines in a South American country who receive the Consecration and then at some point leave.  The problem was that while the solemn vows were dispensed, they were still consecrated virgins.  This is one reason why traditionally certain Orders only consecrate the virgins 10-25 years after solemn profession - to ensure perpetual virginity.

 

 

I think one thoughtful question that must be asked is why is it that as I have indicated in an earlier thread, the consecration to a life of virginity (as a nun or in the world) is forever and the consecration of a religious is not?

 

I would argue they are either both life long or neither are. The Church has not indicated a qualitative difference in these two consecrations and the discussion about gradations in consecration are part of their rightful resistance to do so. Sister Mary Catharine has indicated that the consecration of the solemnly (or perpetually) professed Sister/nun is life long, but the obligations may not be. I have indicated that the consecration initiates into a stable state of life with canonical (and some civil) rights and obligations and that one may leave this stable state.

 

In fact, with regard to CV's I know of cases where the Bishop involved thought the consecration was temporary (and used the Rite as a form of temporary commitment); for various connected reasons (not the woman's fault!) the woman so consecrated moved on and was considered free to do so. While that Bishop was wrong in using the Rite as he did the woman CANNOT live as a CV in the world; her consecration may still exist, but the obligations of her commitment do not continue, and in fact cannot. She has left the consecrated state of life she was initiated into in more ways than simply legally. I would argue that any CV who discerns she was mistaken in discerning a lifelong vocation and who thereafter decides to marry is free to do so. The Church does NOT actually treat consecration as a CV living in the world as a diriment impediment to marriage (I am aware of opinions which affirm that by custom it is, but until these assertions are ratified in canon law either by moto proprio or another revision of the code itself it remains that the Church does not treat it in this way; Canon 1076 may apply here).

 

Regarding perpetually or solemnly professed religious/hermits who also receive a solemn consecration and then seek dispensation from their vows,  they too leave the consecrated state of life they were initiated into. That is, they have been dispensed from the legal rights and obligations attending and integrally linked to their consecrations but do they cease to be consecrated persons, persons set apart by God? Again, if CV's do not, then neither do these. Consecration is an act of God and besdies not making a qualitative distinction between the two consecrations I don't think the Church ever simply sets this aside or argues that it is. At the same time Vatican II's careful distinction between dedication and consecration allows us to argue clearly that the first may change while the second does not. We do well to distinguish between charism, mission, consecrated state, and consecration since these categories may provide the answer to the problems which are not yet resolved by the Church and do so in ways simply speaking about consecration per se does not.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[God's Beloved]

The Evangelical Counsels are not drawn from The Beatitudes, rather from the Person of Jesus Himself and how He lived His life as the Poor, Chaste and Obedient One and in perfect Charity. (see  quotation box 1.below - sorry quotation things wont work)..................

 

What I wrote was

 

"Every baptised  person is called to follow Christ in the spirit of the Beatitudes  from which the evangelical counsels of religious life are derived . True ,  HOW each one lives the Beatitudes  will vary according to ones vocation ! "

 

If we want to debate over words and grammar of emphases, we can do so forever because in the bible and also in history of church documents and resources , debaters will often find enough material to support  each ones own position and contradict the other !

 

I am taking these discussions in a sporting spirit , with no intention to offend or be offended. I always consider myself a student  and ever willing to listen. But I'm infamous for asking too many questions too.

 

Sorry I had written  that response to your post rather casually , as a friend who liked the message in what you wrote  , and not with theological intent . I don't know whether Phatmass discussions  are supposed to be serious theological discussions  like an examination at a university. I'll be very careful about words  and grammar at least in future.

 

My actual position is " follow Christ in the spirit of the beatitudes" . The term " follow Christ" at least in vocation of CV  implicitly  contains the spirit of the evangelical counsels [ It is in the proposito  of the virgin in the ceremony] .   The term  'follow Christ' at least to me immediately  brings  to mind the Paschal mystery and the call to carry my own cross and follow Him . That is a given  in any discussion on  discipleship. Sacraments of Christian Initiation  already imply  this following.

 

  To  dissect this 'following' into 3 evangelical counsels and say   "Religious Life is the state of perfection as The Church states, and we are all called to perfection/holiness, hence the way of perfection outside of religious life will be a way of chastity, poverty and obedience IN ACCORD with one's particular vocation and call from God."  is a bit  complicating . i  personally  like to keep   the original  word that Jesus Christ used for discipleship as following Him. 

 

Religious life with its terminology and structures  has lost attraction in most parts of the world. 

 

The New Evangelisation needs a New language for presenting the Gospel.

[God's Beloved]

In continuation with resources to support  the idea of 'seal' of consecration :

 

As I mentioned and provided references  earlier, the liturgy of consecration of virgins is a theological locus for the theology of marriage.While there is very little Post Vatican Council II theology on CV except in Canon 604 , the Introduction and homily of the Rite , the theology of marriage which is itself based on theology of consecration of virgins can help understand CV better.

 

 

II. THE CELEBRATION OF MARRIAGE

1621 In the Latin Rite the celebration of marriage between two Catholic faithful normally takes place during Holy Mass, because of the connection of all the sacraments with the Paschal mystery of Christ.¹²⁰ In the Eucharist the memorial of the New Covenant is realized, the New Covenant in which Christ has united himself for ever to the Church, his beloved bride for whom he gave himself up.¹²¹ It is therefore fitting that the spouses should seal their consent to give themselves to each other through the offering of their own lives by uniting it to the offering of Christ for his Church made present in the Eucharistic sacrifice, and by receiving the Eucharist so that, communicating in the same Body and the same Blood of Christ, they may form but "one body" in Christ.¹²²

 

1623 According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ's grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern Churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent given by the spouses,¹²⁴ but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.¹²⁵

 

1624 The various liturgies abound in prayers of blessing and epiclesis asking God's grace and blessing on the new couple, especially the bride. In the epiclesis of this sacrament the spouses receive the Holy Spirit as the communion of love of Christ and the Church.¹²⁶The Holy Spirit is the seal of their covenant, the ever available source of their love and the strength to renew their fidelity.

 

The marriage bond

1639 The consent by which the spouses mutually give and receive one another is sealed by God himself.¹⁴³ From their covenant arises "an institution, confirmed by the divine law, . . . even in the eyes of society."¹⁴⁴ The covenant between the spouses is integrated into God's covenant with man: "Authentic married love is caught up into divine love."¹⁴⁵

1640 Thus the marriage bond has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by God's fidelity. The Church does not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom.¹⁴⁶

 

 

 

 

The fidelity of conjugal love

1646 By its very nature conjugal love requires the inviolable fidelity of the spouses. This is the consequence of the gift of themselves which they make to each other. Love seeks to be definitive; it cannot be an arrangement "until further notice." The "intimate union of marriage, as a mutual giving of two persons, and the good of the children, demand total fidelity from the spouses and require an unbreakable union between them."¹⁵⁷

1647 The deepest reason is found in the fidelity of God to his covenant, in that of Christ to his Church. Through the sacrament of Matrimony the spouses are enabled to represent this fidelity and witness to it. Through the sacrament, the indissolubility of marriage receives a new and deeper meaning.

 

1659 St. Paul said: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church. . . . This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church" (Eph 5:25, 32).

 

1661 The sacrament of Matrimony signifies the union of Christ and the Church. It gives spouses the grace to love each other with the love with which Christ has loved his Church; the grace of the sacrament thus perfects the human love of the spouses, strengthens their indissoluble unity, and sanctifies them on the way to eternal life (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1799).

 

AT THE WELLSPRINGS OF PRAYER

2652 The Holy Spirit is the living water "welling up to eternal life"³ in the heart that prays. It is he who teaches us to accept it at its source: Christ. Indeed in the Christian life there are several wellsprings where Christ awaits us to enable us to drink of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BarbTherese]

What I wrote was

 

"Every baptised  person is called to follow Christ in the spirit of the Beatitudes  from which the evangelical counsels of religious life are derived . True ,  HOW each one lives the Beatitudes  will vary according to ones vocation ! "

 

If we want to debate over words and grammar of emphases, we can do so forever because in the bible and also in history of church documents and resources , debaters will often find enough material to support  each ones own position and contradict the other !

 

I am taking these discussions in a sporting spirit , with no intention to offend or be offended. I always consider myself a student  and ever willing to listen. But I'm infamous for asking too many questions too.

 

Sorry I had written  that response to your post rather casually , as a friend who liked the message in what you wrote  , and not with theological intent . I don't know whether Phatmass discussions  are supposed to be serious theological discussions  like an examination at a university. I'll be very careful about words  and grammar at least in future.

 

My actual position is " follow Christ in the spirit of the beatitudes" . The term " follow Christ" at least in vocation of CV  implicitly  contains the spirit of the evangelical counsels [ It is in the proposito  of the virgin in the ceremony] .   The term  'follow Christ' at least to me immediately  brings  to mind the Paschal mystery and the call to carry my own cross and follow Him . That is a given  in any discussion on  discipleship. Sacraments of Christian Initiation  already imply  this following.

 

  To  dissect this 'following' into 3 evangelical counsels and say   "Religious Life is the state of perfection as The Church states, and we are all called to perfection/holiness, hence the way of perfection outside of religious life will be a way of chastity, poverty and obedience IN ACCORD with one's particular vocation and call from God."  is a bit  complicating . i  personally  like to keep   the original  word that Jesus Christ used for discipleship as following Him. 

 

Religious life with its terminology and structures  has lost attraction in most parts of the world. 

 

The New Evangelisation needs a New language for presenting the Gospel.

 

Hi GB -

I did do a reply to your post above and then suddenly it disappeared, as my posts into Phatmass can do;  hence, the post was not meant to be.  Phatmass is doing dreadful things to me in the editing and formatting department and not my first post to vanish into cyberspace.  I need to write into Word and then cut and paste into Phatmass.

I thank you for your comments and taking the time to make them, even if I could not agree in places.  What a boring world it would be if we were all precisely the same and never thought differently.  We would need to be infallible all of us and in all things.  To my mind as long as there is disagreement, the truth is still struggling for the light somewhere or other.

 

I apologize, but it took me quite some time to write the post and just at this point, I cannot motivate myself to try to write a response again - and perhaps in the best interests for all in this thread and any just reading.  Most of this thread is all going way over my head, way over.

 

Regards...............Barb :)

[Sister_Laurel]

 

 

All this is because the Consecration of virgins was considered a sacrament with permanent effect  in the Early Church.   The Church has  moved towards more and more leniency over the centuries.

 

The Church has also, at times considered religious profession/consecration a Sacrament for precisely the same reasons. It does not do so now. This is not a matter of leniency but of theological clarity. Both the consecration of virgins and the consecration of religious are considered sacramentals today, and rightly so. Further, the Church does not speak of the CV as being in the state of matrimony, but in the consecrated state. The sign value is eschatological, which does not lessen its value of course, but it does locate and distinguish it more precisely from the Sacrament of Matrimony.

 

I understand that the consecration of virgins living in the world is badly understood by many, and not esteemed by as many, but we do not esteem it by making it something other than what it actually is. It is not a form of quasi-religious life; it is not a sacrament; it does not initiate one into the state of matrimony per se. It's consecration is of the same character as any other consecration, no more, no less. Again, the Church does NOT distinguish qualitatively between the consecration of one and the consecration of the other although the graces and charisms associated with the consecrations may differ some from one another.

 

By the way, in the Rite of Perpetual Profession of Women BOTH the terms espousal and betrothal are used in the solemn prayer of consecration and the presentation of insigniae (as well as the antiphon following). They are clearly meant as synonyms so one cannot distinguish the two consecrations in this way either and suggest that one is a marriage while the other is not. The prayers and antiphon read as follows:

 

[[. . .Father in your loving wisdom you have singled out many of your daughters to be disciples espoused to Christ and to receive the honor of his love. . . . Lord may the glory of baptism and holiness of life shine in their hearts. Strengthened by the vows of their consecration may they always on with you in loving fidelity to Christ their only Bridegroom. . . .When they come at last to the throne of Christ the King, may they not fear him as their judge, but hear the voice of their Bridegroom lovingly inviting them to the wedding feast of heaven. . .]] and [[ Receive this ring, for you are betrothed the the eternal King, keep faith with your Bridegroom so that you may come to the wedding feast of eternal joy.]] The antiphon reads: [[I am betrothed to the Son of the eternal Father to him who was born of the virgin Mother to be the savior of the world.]] Meanwhile, the solemn blessing at the end of Mass, reminds and asks, [[May he make those bonds with which he has bound you to Christ on earth, endure for ever in heaven.]]

 

I am concerned that canon 604 (consecrated virgins living in the world) is still in search of its own meaning and significance in our church and world. I believe (and I know some disagree with me here) that its secularity is a huge piece of its true nature and distinguishiing importance; we must understand this as a form of sacred or sacramental secularity pointing to the capacity of all the world to become sacramental. But I agree wholeheartedly with Sister Mary Catharine, OP, that we cannot "puff up" the vocation in theological terms the Church herself does not use, especially in ways which seem to buy into the all-too-worldly notions of value which diminish other consecrations or vocations in the process.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

 

 

 

[BarbTherese]

GB (God’s Beloved) wrote : “What I wrote was "Every baptised person is called to follow Christ in the spirit of the Beatitudes from which the evangelical counsels of religious life are derived . True , HOW each one lives the Beatitudes will vary according to ones vocation ! "

 

I did know that is what you wrote and it is what I could not agree with.

 

GB wrote : If we want to debate over words and grammar of emphases, we can do so forever because in the bible and also in history of church documents and resources , debaters will often find enough material to support each ones own position and contradict the other !

 

What I was quoting from was The Catholic Catechism and surely we can and must believe what it states.  I was quoting from the CCC to support what I was stating.  Also to a much lesser degree I quoted from Vita Consecrata.

 

GB wrote :I am taking these discussions in a sporting spirit , with no intention to offend or be offended. I always consider myself a student and ever willing to listen. But I'm infamous for asking too many questions too.

Sorry I had written that response to your post rather casually , as a friend who liked the message in what you wrote , and not with theological intent . I don't know whether Phatmass discussions are supposed to be serious theological discussions like an examination at a university. I'll be very careful about words and grammar at least in future.

 

I have no desire whatsoever to be offensive either and if I was, then I do sincerely apologize.  Phatmass discussions insofar as I am aware can be either one’s own concepts unsupported by any source, or one’s own concepts perhaps supported by hopefully some sound and reliable source or sources.  No hard and fast rules in any direction on this particular subject insofar as I am aware.

 

Personally, if I am commenting on some sort of Catholic subject, then I do try to be theologically accurate.  Do we have to do so on Phatmass? I have no idea. Thus, I have no right whatsoever to impose it on others if Phatmass has no ruling on the matter, nor have I sought to impose unless someone is quoting something as Church Teaching.

 

If you have liked something I wrote, I don’t think that this imposes an obligation on me to agree necessarily with something that you have written and especially if I don’t agree with it. Also, I think I may not have seen where you posted you liked what I had to say until after I had written the post where I could not agree with a statement you made.  I can’t quite recall.  I try very hard to speak to the subject but being more a creative writer, I offend against my own rules for myself I am sure - and not only in posting into Phatmass – for sure!  And so I apologize if I have lapsed into creative writing somewhere instead of speaking to the subject.  I most certainly hope that I would not be uncharitable and unkind nor offensive and do not mean to be so – and again, if you have found any of my posts offensive, then I do sincerely apologize.

Sometimes I might write in a quite casual vein perhaps more inclined towards creative type writing.  At other times I strive to be theologically correct with supporting sound sources with links – and this is especially so if I think it necessary without any rules for myself when it is necessary or if when is not.

 

GB wrote : My actual position is " follow Christ in the spirit of the beatitudes" . The term " follow Christ" at least in vocation of CV implicitly contains the spirit of the evangelical counsels [ It is in the proposito of the virgin in the ceremony] . The term 'follow Christ' at least to me immediately brings to mind the Paschal mystery and the call to carry my own cross and follow Him . That is a given in any discussion on discipleship. Sacraments of Christian Initiation already imply this following.

In my personal life, I am in line with the CCC (and what I quoted from the CCC) at least in sincere motivation and intention.  While my being remains weak and faulted, fallible – and consistently.  Certainly in having made private vows to the evangelical counsels and having defined what I am about, I have a moral obligation to these vows and my ‘rule’ in the spirit of the Beatitudes as Charity may dictate.  My ‘rule’ is nothing unique, rather drawn from The Gospels to which I have an obligation anyway.  My ‘rule’ lays emphasis on some aspects of The Gospel.

 

AT THIS POINT, THE FORMATTING INTO COLOUR WOULD NO LONGER WORK FOR ME

 

GB wrote : To dissect this 'following' into 3 evangelical counsels and say "Religious Life is the state of perfection as The Church states, and we are all called to perfection/holiness, hence the way of perfection outside of religious life will be a way of chastity, poverty and obedience IN ACCORD with one's particular vocation and call from God." is a bit complicating . i personally like to keep the original word that Jesus Christ used for discipleship as following Him.

 

I was merely putting into my own words what is stated in the CCC (Catholic Catechism) from which I did quote with links.  I am sorry that it was complicated to you.  I don’t find it so.  But then we are all unique creations and oh what a boring world if we were all precisely the same.

 

GB wrote : Religious life with its terminology and structures has lost attraction in most parts of the world.

The New Evangelisation needs a New language for presenting the Gospel.

 

This is your personal concept (although I am not sure at all of your precise meaning re the New Evangelisation). I do not dispute for one moment your right to have a personal concept or concepts, nor its’ content if not contrary to what The Church teaches which is always my guide and anchor, and of course your statements above are not contrary to what The Church teaches.  I don’t know really (I find it hard to keep up with all The Church publishes) perhaps your statement above is in line with what The Church is stating on both religious life and the new evangelisation.   In fact I would defend – and probably adamantly - your absolute right to have your own personal concepts in some matters.

Attributed to St Augustine: “in non-essentials liberty; in essentials unity and in all things Love (Charity)” – brackets mine.

I certainly do advocate that we strive to get The Gospel into the vernacular – to present it as very relevant to life in our times and understandable to the people of our times who may not be as familiar as many of us are with The Gospel nor even with some of the terminology with which we are all mostly familiar.  This was a challenge to me in my previous residence and suburb where I can safely say almost none, if not all, were educated beyond 7^th Grade if that - and found The Old and New Testaments confusing – hence I needed at times to explain their confusions and in language that they could grasp and I did strive to do so with relevance to their lives and to their various journeys.

Just in closing, the evangelical counsels are not confined to religious life.  They are proposed to every baptised person as a disciple of Jesus not as a vowed and stable state in life necessarily, but in accord with one’s particular state in life and vocation as stated in the Catholic Catechism and previously quoted.  As stated in the Catholic Catechism and quoted previously:

 

“The aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it”  We are all called to the perfection of Charity.

 

The Church has discerned that religious life and some secular institutes (there may be more) that the evangelical counsels are vowed or promised and as a stable state in life in the consecrated state……………….and impossible, I suspect, to misinterpret Lumen Gentium as below :

 

Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on The Church)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

.............“the counsels, customarily called "evangelical." This practice of the counsels, under the impulsion of the Holy Spirit, undertaken by many Christians, either privately or in a Church-approved condition or state of life, gives and must give in the world an outstanding witness and example of this same holiness.”

[AccountDeleted]

The Church has also, at times considered religious profession/consecration a Sacrament for precisely the same reasons. It does not do so now. This is not a matter of leniency but of theological clarity. Both the consecration of virgins and the consecration of religious are considered sacramentals today, and rightly so. Further, the Church does not speak of the CV as being in the state of matrimony, but in the consecrated state. The sign value is eschatological, which does not lessen its value of course, but it does locate and distinguish it more precisely from the Sacrament of Matrimony.

 

I understand that the consecration of virgins living in the world is badly understood by many, and not esteemed by as many, but we do not esteem it by making it something other than what it actually is. It is not a form of quasi-religious life; it is not a sacrament; it does not initiate one into the state of matrimony per se. It's consecration is of the same character as any other consecration, no more, no less. Again, the Church does NOT distinguish qualitatively between the consecration of one and the consecration of the other although the graces and charisms associated with the consecrations may differ some from one another.

 

By the way, in the Rite of Perpetual Profession of Women BOTH the terms espousal and betrothal are used in the solemn prayer of consecration and the presentation of insigniae (as well as the antiphon following). They are clearly meant as synonyms so one cannot distinguish the two consecrations in this way either and suggest that one is a marriage while the other is not. The prayers and antiphon read as follows:

 

[[. . .Father in your loving wisdom you have singled out many of your daughters to be disciples espoused to Christ and to receive the honor of his love. . . . Lord may the glory of baptism and holiness of life shine in their hearts. Strengthened by the vows of their consecration may they always on with you in loving fidelity to Christ their only Bridegroom. . . .When they come at last to the throne of Christ the King, may they not fear him as their judge, but hear the voice of their Bridegroom lovingly inviting them to the wedding feast of heaven. . .]] and [[ Receive this ring, for you are betrothed the the eternal King, keep faith with your Bridegroom so that you may come to the wedding feast of eternal joy.]] The antiphon reads: [[I am betrothed to the Son of the eternal Father to him who was born of the virgin Mother to be the savior of the world.]] Meanwhile, the solemn blessing at the end of Mass, reminds and asks, [[May he make those bonds with which he has bound you to Christ on earth, endure for ever in heaven.]]

 

I am concerned that canon 604 (consecrated virgins living in the world) is still in search of its own meaning and significance in our church and world. I believe (and I know some disagree with me here) that its secularity is a huge piece of its true nature and distinguishiing importance; we must understand this as a form of sacred or sacramental secularity pointing to the capacity of all the world to become sacramental. But I agree wholeheartedly with Sister Mary Catharine, OP, that we cannot "puff up" the vocation in theological terms the Church herself does not use, especially in ways which seem to buy into the all-too-worldly notions of value which diminish other consecrations or vocations in the process.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

 

 

Both you and Sister Mary Catherine have written eloquently on the topic of consecration. I had some reservations myself about the way the vocation of CV has been presented in this thread, as if it were somehow more special than any other vocation, and should be considered a sacrament, and that it puts a 'seal' on the soul. I didn't know how to express my concerns however, so am most relieved that both you and Sr M C have been able to put into words what I could not. I would hate to imagine a heaven where the 'hierarchy' of earthly thinking applies and where the 'competition' that exists on earth would somehow also exist. If I have to compete in heaven for God's love, then it wouldn't be heaven for me.

 

The God I know and adore may have a hierarchy set up in heaven according to His Will (we have heard of the hierarchy of the angels) but even with the angels it appears to be more a hierarchy of function than one of prestige! The seraphim have one function, the cherubim another, the archangels yet another etc. but all is based on their place in God's plan, not on their 'specialness'. The Church hierarchy is set up as a reflection of the heavenly one, designed for function (Jesus said that those who would be leaders must first be servants).

 

When I think about the calling God has given me to enter Carmel, I never for a moment imagine that I am somehow special or that my vocation is in any way qualitatively better than anyone else's vocation. It is simply the one that God gave to me to fulfil His plan, not mine. And it has not been made possible until now, after I have already fulfilled a vocation as an adoptive mother.

 

Although I see the life of a consecrated virgin as a very valuable one, it is not a sacrament, nor does it impose a seal on the soul as Holy Orders do or the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. When I asked a priest once why religious life was not a sacrament, he told me that Sacraments are those things that are essential for the survival of the Church. Holy Orders and Marriage are Sacraments - without priests or families the Church would not survive. Religious life, on the other hand, along with CVs and CHs and any other form of lifestyle - are important and valuable to the Church - but not essential.

 

The way I view my vocation to religious life is that it is a great gift to be allowed to serve God in that way because it appeals to me and I can see value in it. But I would never try to make it seem as if I were somehow special because of it. I actually see it the opposite way - as an expression of God's mercy towards someone who needs a lot of help from others in learning how to love Him and others. To see any vocation as qualitively better than another seems remarkably like a dangerous path to the sin of spiritual pride.

 

Anyone can become a spouse of Christ in their soul, through His grace, even if they can't necessarily consecrate themselves formally to Him through the Church for any reason. God knows our hearts and I am sure that those who offer Him their 'widows mite' will be as cherished by Him in heaven as those who give to Him from their abundance. It is only in our human view of things that we want to separate everything into 'first class', 'business class' and 'economy'. :)

[God's Beloved]

Both you and Sister Mary Catherine have written eloquently on the topic of consecration. I had some reservations myself about the way the vocation of CV has been presented in this thread, as if it were somehow more special than any other vocation, and should be considered a sacrament, and that it puts a 'seal' on the soul. I didn't know how to express my concerns however, so am most relieved that both you and Sr M C have been able to put into words what I could not. I would hate to imagine a heaven where the 'hierarchy' of earthly thinking applies and where the 'competition' that exists on earth would somehow also exist. If I have to compete in heaven for God's love, then it wouldn't be heaven for me.

 

I have serious objection to the above : I intended  this to be a friendly discussion , but  AS USUAL  persons belonging to Powerful   Religious Institutes  are feeling so threatened  that  they are reading  'selectively' and accusing me of what  I am myself fighting against in the Church . Religious  in my country have EVERYTHING  : roof,  Eucharist in their convents, community ,  guaranteed formation, education , spiritual retreats , resources , libraries ,  Jobs in the church, security in times of sickness, public recognition in the church and the world, social security etc. etc.

 

What does a CV have ? We don't even BELONG  to the neatly categorized or Church dissected into Clergy, Religious and Laity.  There are no prayers for us in the church although we  spend every moment of our lives  in prayer and penance for the local and universal church and world. No encouragement, but only ridicule . The good we say or do  is not  highlighted , but  even if there is a small human error  it is made into a mountain. A religious woman  shamelessly  pushes a CV aside and breaks the queue to receive Holy Communion , only because she belongs to a powerful Institute and is wearing a habit . Religious priests  make sure to  insult CV from the pulpit  and make it impossible to serve the parish. Mind you, I live in a parish run by  Carmelite monastics [OCD] .

 

Why I am a CV  ?  Because  I  wanted to join a Carmelite monastery  and they  got me  baptised  by saying that  I  was illegitimate because  my parents were hindus and  not married in church and they told me i  could not belong to God's Kingdom without being baptised sacramentally. And they promised to change the enclosure to an open ashram style  but they didn't . My  relatives could not bear the western structure and  there was persecution . The OCD women  sent me away  to save their own selves and  i actually  was close to death as result . They never  dared to take me after that . Even I realised I was not meant for monastic life. Then to be faithful to Jesus as a baptised person  I moved to another city, all alone with an empty pocket . Religious  institutes running hostels for women over-charged me to discourage me from staying forever ,  deprived me of meals if I was five minutes late even after I became a CV and served  the Church all day  on a minimum salary . They would not even give me food if I was sick in the hostel and unable to get lunch from outside.  My experience in a hostel run by a hindu women's organisation was  much more humane.

 

I was cheated  regarding the nature of OCV . A  non- canonical  association of  Singles  who live more like hermits  but use rite for CV  duped me with false promises of forming a canonical association of CV that would support each other in times of crisis but which they denied after consecration. So did the hierarchy because they did not take the vocation of CV seriously but saw it as  some lay commitment  INFERIOR to religious life  and  to use my services as cheap labour , paid at par with religious who don't have to spend for their roof, sickness, old age etc.  Even written  contract  totally denied  when they realised there is no canonical protection for CV .   I tried to study theology  to go to root cause of these problems faced by converts who think  catholics - especially religious are Saints !  Religious women supported a boy of their own  caste/village   to harrass me  because they felt threatened by a  CV who had freedom to speak in the classroom full of seminarians  and they always kept silent .  I objected to abuse , I lost my job in the church for trying to be authentic to my vocation.In India there  is bad theology of  religious women  who think they are brides of clergy. It is a 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' kind of evil  in Asia and Africa . Its really BAD and many innocent ,gullible, naive girls from poor parts of India literally are bought by rich religious  Institutes and  Used............In civil language this is called Human trafficking. Also done by rich religious institutes in western countries who want youngsters to look after them in their old age and continue their  institutes.

 

It is in this context that  I decided to go to the root of this 'Bride of Christ' theology in the Church. In my article I have been different in suggesting that religious are Bride of Christ as a community just as the Church community is the Bride of Christ. Why ? You think for yourself. It is not to make the devotion of religious women inferior to that of CVs  but  so that  clergy cannot fool an individual religious woman into  sex  by calling her a bride of Christ as an individual  .   If you read my blog you'll also realize that I am not Promoting CV but in fact asking whether it  is even relevant in today's world  , and if it is relevant then what form it can take in the Post-Vatican II church that speaks of equality of dignity and call to holiness of all the baptised !  I personally am discerning whether I'll be  more faithful to the call to chastity  by not being a CV  who  is treated like a bride of the clergy . It is painful when you spend years and years struggling every moment  to be faithful , paying the price for your love for Jesus and religious try to kill your  vocation of union with Christ and service to the church and some  try to  convert your charism of Love for Christ into  some  Sacred Secularity.  When I read this term in this post , Jesus knows how  I felt the twisting  in my stomach , the gut feeling that  its NOT me. My  heart and spirit  Wept.  I know i would not have suffered so much in my life for Sacred Secularity however good it may be. That's the calling of Laity .But I can also say that my involvement as a citizen, as a christian in civic duties and responsibilities is much more than most people around me . I'm a person who really loves the world that God loves .Yet I CANNOT call if my specific charism or major element of my charism.  And in my country  people of all religions are very  devout . So to say that CV is Sacred Secularity does not make  it any different from  any person of any religion  since most see everything with religious eyes .Globalisation is gradually affecting this religiousity.

 

 It looks like  my published article has not been read  and  I am being accused of  wanting to create a Hierarchy or a Sacrament out of CV ! Please search your conscience . Maybe you are saying this because you are feeling threatened or with an unconscious desire to KILL the vocation of CV or change its charism -like  religious are doing in my diocese.I am being frank and not  sorry for speaking the truth. Westerners look upon  Asians and Africans in a condescending manner as  if we are pagans or heretics when we  inculturate the faith and speak in a different terminology or eastern logic. If the language/logic/philosophy in the west was so perfect , Europe and America would not  become Post-Christian and Secular. Religious life would not fade. I know for sure that when I sent my article for publication, I requested the theological faculty to inform me if there was any doctrinal error. I even sent it to the  local authorities. In fact  my article was published  immediately next to the transcript of a talk given by the Pope's representative /the Apostolic Nuncio at a gathering  of members of the Jesuit Institute that published it.  I have enquired with several  authorities at local and universal levels and  not one has  disputed the content. I have reasons [ which I cannot share here ] to think the Holy Father has no problem if there is a discussion  in the church  along the lines that I have written about CV.

 

 

 

The God I know and adore may have a hierarchy set up in heaven according to His Will (we have heard of the hierarchy of the angels) but even with the angels it appears to be more a hierarchy of function than one of prestige! The seraphim have one function, the cherubim another, the archangels yet another etc. but all is based on their place in God's plan, not on their 'specialness'. The Church hierarchy is set up as a reflection of the heavenly one, designed for function (Jesus said that those who would be leaders must first be servants).

 

When I think about the calling God has given me to enter Carmel, I never for a moment imagine that I am somehow special or that my vocation is in any way qualitatively better than anyone else's vocation. It is simply the one that God gave to me to fulfil His plan, not mine. And it has not been made possible until now, after I have already fulfilled a vocation as an adoptive mother.

 

The  Discalced Carmelites I know hardly think like that. Once I spoke to a prioress regarding  something and she said,"  I will speak to Jesus  My Spouse  to help you !"  I swallowed my humiliation and reminded her that  Jesus is My Spouse too . [  I don't think  the prayers of monastics are dearer to Him  than those of CVs in the world or laity in the world who constantly offer  every moment, activity, prayer to Him for the Church and the world.  In a city where 20000 to 200000 people occupy 1 sq km/mile , thousands of laity struggle for one meal a day inspite of  hard physical work , no fixed home,  families to look after , no medical insurance -----whose prayers would be given preference? God is not blind. Are these  dozen women holier because they take solemn vows of obedience, poverty, chastity while living in a monastery   which could fetch enough money to  give a good future to tens of thousands of Dalit Christian converts in India who are discriminated against because they belong to lower strata of society ? Jesus always had perferential option for the poor. it is easy for any religious to say God Alone Suffices when they don't have to struggle for a roof , work , community to take care of them, Eucharist to support spiritually and even receive much  prestige from laity as if they are so holy in their habits that they don't need to go to the toilet. I would call such  spiritual jargon as Bull**** when it is the poor who don't even have the privacy of a toilet but  ACTUALLY depend on God trusting Him one day at a time for their survival. These are the real 'anawim'. They have not rejected the world that God created and loves so much that He sent His only Son to be incarnated and be God-With-Us.

 

I can write lots about the ARROGANCE of  Religious. 

 

 

Although I see the life of a consecrated virgin as a very valuable one, it is not a sacrament, nor does it impose a seal on the soul as Holy Orders do or the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. When I asked a priest once why religious life was not a sacrament, he told me that Sacraments are those things that are essential for the survival of the Church. Holy Orders and Marriage are Sacraments - without priests or families the Church would not survive. Religious life, on the other hand, along with CVs and CHs and any other form of lifestyle - are important and valuable to the Church - but not essential.

 

The way I view my vocation to religious life is that it is a great gift to be allowed to serve God in that way because it appeals to me and I can see value in it. But I would never try to make it seem as if I were somehow special because of it. I actually see it the opposite way - as an expression of God's mercy towards someone who needs a lot of help from others in learning how to love Him and others. To see any vocation as qualitively better than another seems remarkably like a dangerous path to the sin of spiritual pride.

 

Anyone can become a spouse of Christ in their soul, through His grace, even if they can't necessarily consecrate themselves formally to Him through the Church for any reason. God knows our hearts and I am sure that those who offer Him their 'widows mite' will be as cherished by Him in heaven as those who give to Him from their abundance. It is only in our human view of things that we want to separate everything into 'first class', 'business class' and 'economy'. :)

 

 

I have written in the posts previously as follows 

[But you seem to be deliberately  overlooking this and blaming me of creating a hierarchy when it is you'll doing it ]:

 

"It is true that the Second Vatican Council  removed the concept of  degree or gradation of consecration. Even the issue of Solemn or Simple vows is now left to the internal tradition of each institute or vocation. The New Code of Canon law 1983  specifies the equality of dignity of all the baptized in the call to holiness.

 

" I'm not discussing  gradation of consecration in comparing two different rites , one for  a life of virginity , another for a life of the silence of solitude , or a profession of vows in a religious institute  etc."

 

"The consecration of virgins is considered a Sacramental. There  could be several reasons for this" ...............................

 

"There is lot of room for discussion on  the theology of the rite. But my personal opinion is that any  human being , even an unbaptised follower of Christ ,  may  reach the highest and deepest levels of holiness thru  Union with God , while a consecrated virgin may not manifest the desired  well-spring of compassion , the fruit of the Holy Spirit  in her life.  We can become too proud  of being  Bride of Christ and actually  miss the crown."

 

I have stated in the signature section The ideas expressed in the posts are my own and based on prayer and searching for the truth . We need to reflect on them with discernment and possibly with sharing of opinions , healthy debate if necessary. This will help to refine the ideas and conform them to God’s will in the ongoing search

 

 

"In yr 2003 I sent following Questions to the Congr for the Inst. of Cons. life in Rome :

 

Canon 604#1 says that we are consecrated by the Bishop. How exactly is this different from the Prayer of consecration in the Rite for the Profession of Religious Women ? In several theological articles it is said  that in the Cons. of virgins what is specific is the charismatic element in the Rite whereas in the Rite of Religious Profession what is specific is the ascetic element or the Profession of vows according to the Constitution of the Institute .............Since the Consecration takes place by the very words in the Prayer of Consecration, the Information provided by the United States Association of Consecrated Virgins says that it is Irrevocable. They say there can be no dispensation from the commitment ...........in case later in life the virgin feels a call to marriage. How far is this true ?

 

Their response : Prot.n. SpR 862-4/2003 was :

 

........ it is to be hoped that as the Rite is better known,and is studied both by the candidate and by the consecrating bishop, it will be clear that the candidate's proposito expresses her intent and the solemn prayer of the Bishop consecrates her. This is distinct from the rite of religious profession in which the profession of the evangelical counsels- all other canonical requirements being in place--consecrates the candidate to God[c.654]

 

It would be true to say that the Consecration effected through the Rite is permanent. For this reason some Bishops require periods of time with a private vow of chastity during the formation time, before accepting a candidate for the Consecration.We have , however, received the question of a possible dispensation from the proposito and from the obligations arising from the Consecration. This while regrettable, would seem would be within the competency of the Diocesan Bishop. There has not been any formal definition in this regard."

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sr. Mary Catharine, on 31 Dec 2012 - 02:43, said:

Consecration of Virgins is a very beautiful and necessary vocation for the life of the Church but I think it is important to not "puff" it up. Objectively, it is the vow of obedience that is the "highest" because it is the offering of the highest part of ourselves, our will, to God. In the vow of obedience we become more perfectly configured to Christ, who in obedience to the Father, offered his life for the world.

And abrideofChrist said :

 

Certainly the vow of obedience is very high.  That is why religious priests are "higher" than diocesan/secular priests.  You might say the same for religious CVs versus secular CVs.

 

Why  haven't the persons accusing me of creating a hierarchy objected to these comments ??????????????????????? just because they are in favour of religious life ??????????????

 

I wonder if God  judges religious  as consecrated because of Vows of Obedience, Poverty, Chastity   . Vows don't make anyone obedient, poor, chaste. Living these vows does. And it should make sense  when  there are millions of people outside the convents  who are relatively more obedient , actually poor and living chastity even in marriage.

 

If  the  spousal bond  in Rite of religious profession and Rite of consecration of virgins is  Same , then why does a monastic who is already consecrated  receive  the consecration as a virgin ?  Also  , as far as I know , out of the Two versions of  the Rite for Religious women, only one version of the prayer for blessing or consecration  has spousal imagery. So  it means All religious are not consecrated as brides.

 

An expert in  liturgy  would be in better position to understand difference between the prayer in rite for CV  and rite for Religious women. The Anamnesis or first part of the prayers is a  remembering of salvation history.  The Epiklesis  is  what  is different, very different . The  Vatican is clear in the response they wrote to me that the consecration of religious is   thru the vows . That of  CVs is  thru the  prayer of consecration. The prayer of blessing or consecration for religious is  more of a blessing. That for CVs is strictly a consecration. The latest translation in 2011 is very clear about this.

 

For religious it is the vows according to the constitution that are 'constitutive vows' [ I think it is theology of St Thomas Aquinas] . In case of CVs the prayer of consecration is 'constitutive'  .[ constitutive = thru the very words the consecration takes place].

 

Also , in my article when I wrote about the imprint of the Holy Trinity's Design which is like a 3-D seal, a stamp of approval.................. in the foot-note , I have written  ," What is primary in the rite for religious is the 'profession of vows' rather than the 'prayer of consecration or blessing'. In the profession of religious the woman consecrates herself through 'constitutive vows', according to the constitutions of the religious institute or congregation. The Design she internalizes is that of the charism of the institute which is expressed in its constitutions.

 

Hence to say that I am speaking of God's design like a  'seal' only for CVs and not also for religious ---- is  a false accusation .

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6mnfiq1ux814mg/3.%20article%20on%20OrdoVirginum%20VJTR%202011.pdf

 

 

This thread  has been ONE MORE INSTANCE OF ARROGANT RELIGIOUS POUNCING UPON  A WEAK  , HELPLESS  CV , Probably the West over the east, Institutions over person, Older over younger , Cradle catholic over convert , more theologically educated over lesser theologically educated , Studied knowledge over charismatic gift of creative theology etc. etc.  Even though I'm a CV , I am first  a human being. I don't feel like a human from the way religious make me a scapegoat again and again ...............

 

 

i know  God has called me to write prophetically and that I have to bear the consequences.  Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I am not sorry for what I have written about religious life. I mean it.  I  will differentiate between religious who take vows of  poverty and chastity  and don't live them and those who do live them. I will also differentiate between CVs who  claim to be Brides of Christ but  do not have  the well-spring of Compassion and live selfish  lives and those who do have love and compassion for others.

 

The Holy Father often speaks of the Dictatorship of Relativism . In such dictatorship  people see no difference between  an engagement and a marriage , truth is relativised by saying that all perspectives are equal  hence all religions are equal bearers of Truth. As far as i know the Second Vatican Council  from which the Code of Canon law 1983 is derived  clearly mention equality of dignity of the baptised . A cardinal , a  bishop , priest , deacon,  religious , cv, lay person, adult, child --ALL have equality of dignity.

 

A bishop, priest, deacon each have equality of dignity and call to holiness , but the degrees of their consecration is accepted. Why ?

 

There is plenty of material in history to show that CV is considered the theological locus for sacrament of marriage.  That's how I see this vocation.    In Jewish history, even an engaged woman was called a bride . The difference between profession of vows in a monastery followed by consecration according to rite for CV  is often explained as the former being a marriage ceremony, but the latter its consummation. That's why some theologians say there may be an ontological change in CV  which makes her In persona Church as an individual.

 

I sometimes wonder whether it would have been better for the Church not to create  the umbrella of consecrated life and add CV to it. Should the CV be a ceremony available for women of all vocations of consecrated life ,  or should it be suppressed altogether, or  should it be an antecedent to matrimony, or should diocesan  CVs, Hermits, Widows be restored as Diocesan orders while the term Consecrated life dropped and term Religious life be restored------------is the bride of Christ terminology relevant in today's world ...etc. are question I reflect upon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AccountDeleted]

God's Beloved---

 

I simply do not know how to respond to your above post. It is so full of anger and resentment and almost even hatred that it literally screams out for help of some kind, but I don't know what kind of help you need, whether psychological, emotional or spiritual or a combination of all three.

 

You have had some horrific experiences I can see and have no frame of reference personally to be able to respond in an adequate way. I have certainly encountered some unkind nuns in the past, including Carmelites, and some cranky ones and some unreasonable ones, but I see that nun or not, people are human beings and thus subject to weakness and a lack of charity, just as anyone else is. but you seem to classify all Carmelites (and perhaps even all nuns) as being the same and therefore condemn them all for what some have done to you.

 

You also seem to see conspiracies where there are none, and take much personally that might simply be things that happen - unfairly or not. There is no justice in earthly courts, I have found, only in God's kingdom. And while we must not diminish the pain and suffering you have been through, it is a comfort of our faith that suffering can be redemptive and bring us closer to God-- but only through love and forgiveness, not through anger and condemnation of those who have injured us.

 

I am sorry that you have had so much pain and suffering in seeking to find God's will in your life. Your vocation as a CV is very important to the Church but you don't need to bolster yourself by making it seem more important than any other vocation. Yes, priests are higher than the laity, but that doesn't mean they are better in God's eyes. They are higher in the Church by virtue of their function, just as the Seraphim and Cherubim are higher than the Angels - but not 'better'. I don't object to hierarchy, I object to a qualitative evaluation of that hierarchy. We have all heard of the scandal of priests who have done horrendous things to children. So are they better than a lay person who is in a state of Grace? A priest is given a special grace in order to fulfill a function for God so they are higher in the hierarchy and their office and function deserve respect as God's shepherds, so my point isn't about Church hierarchy - it is about our understanding of the very concept of hierarchy. I am sorry that it offended you so much and caused so much distress. It may be that we share many common beliefs, but that we are not able to express them well enough to understand each other in a forum like this where one posts and the other responds.

 

I have to say honestly that I find it hard to read all of your posts because they become very complicated and almost tortuous in their logic sequence so I do skim and perhaps accidently skip some points. I am trying to respond to the attitude beyond your posts rather than the details of your theology. I do not have time or even desire to read long texts about your theology so you are right in that I have not read your full articles. I apologize for any misunderstandings that might arise from this lack in me. I do request that you try to keep your arguments a little simpler and leave out some of the complex personal theology that you seem to have. I tend to limit myself to the published theology of the Church as it keeps me on track so if you will take your references from that then I will understand you better.

 

I can only say that I will keep you in my prayers, you and the vocation of CVs in your country, who seem to be having a tough time. I do caution you though that if you want your vocation to be respected through what you say and do, then perhaps you should try very hard to control the strong emotion that seems to be overwhelming you. None of us here can know all of the pains you have endured or even understand some of them as we have not had those same experiences. My own experiences in Carmelite monasteries have been both painful and joyful, but I would never try to put all Carmelites in the same box and blame them all for the things that have happened to me. In fact, I am still very close with those convents where I lived, even those where I had a very tough time. Jesus taught us in the Lord's Prayer to ask God to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. So if we want to be forgiven our mistakes, then we really must carry forgiveness in our hearts for those who have injured us in the past. Nuns and priests are human beings and subject to human vices. But there are also many very holy priests and nuns as well so all should not be tarred with the same brush.

 

Please know you have my best wishes for your life as a CV, even if we don't see things the same theologically. God isn't judging us by the same standards that the world is (even the world of the Church) so rest assured that you are 'special' in His eyes, no matter what anyone else might say or think. But your specialness is not because of your vocation - it is because God loves all of His creation, and He made each one of us unique and therefore special to Him. It is God's love that makes each one of us special., not our place in the hierarchy. Just focus on that and stop worrying about where your vocation fits in the hierarchy if you can. Become a servant first and let God exalt you if He so chooses.

 

May God strengthen you during times of hardship and trial in your country and show you how to offer up your pain for the souls of others. There is a great gift in what you are being asked to endure if you can only find hidden pearl. Prayers and more prayers for you.

 

Edited to put in paragraphs for easier reading.

Edited January 2, 2013 by nunsense

[emmaberry101]

I have serious objection to the above : I intended  this to be a friendly discussion , but  AS USUAL  persons belonging to Powerful   Religious Institutes  are feeling so threatened  that  they are reading  'selectively' and accusing me of what  I am myself fighting against in the Church . Religious  in my country have EVERYTHING  : roof,  Eucharist in their convents, community ,  guaranteed formation, education , spiritual retreats , resources , libraries ,  Jobs in the church, security in times of sickness, public recognition in the church and the world, social security etc. etc.

 

What does a CV have ? We don't even BELONG  to the neatly categorized or Church dissected into Clergy, Religious and Laity.  There are no prayers for us in the church although we  spend every moment of our lives  in prayer and penance for the local and universal church and world. No encouragement, but only ridicule . The good we say or do  is not  highlighted , but  even if there is a small human error  it is made into a mountain. A religious woman  shamelessly  pushes a CV aside and breaks the queue to receive Holy Communion , only because she belongs to a powerful Institute and is wearing a habit . Religious priests  make sure to  insult CV from the pulpit  and make it impossible to serve the parish. Mind you, I live in a parish run by  Carmelite monastics [OCD] .

 

Why I am a CV  ?  Because  I  wanted to join a Carmelite monastery  and they  got me  baptised  by saying that  I  was illegitimate because  my parents were hindus and  not married in church and they told me i  could not belong to God's Kingdom without being baptised sacramentally. And they promised to change the enclosure to an open ashram style  but they didn't . My  relatives could not bear the western structure and  there was persecution . The OCD women  sent me away  to save their own selves and  i actually  was close to death as result . They never  dared to take me after that . Even I realised I was not meant for monastic life. Then to be faithful to Jesus as a baptised person  I moved to another city, all alone with an empty pocket . Religious  institutes running hostels for women over-charged me to discourage me from staying forever ,  deprived me of meals if I was five minutes late even after I became a CV and served  the Church all day  on a minimum salary . They would not even give me food if I was sick in the hostel and unable to get lunch from outside.  My experience in a hostel run by a hindu women's organisation was  much more humane.

 

I was cheated  regarding the nature of OCV . A  non- canonical  association of  Singles  who live more like hermits  but use rite for CV  duped me with false promises of forming a canonical association of CV that would support each other in times of crisis but which they denied after consecration. So did the hierarchy because they did not take the vocation of CV seriously but saw it as  some lay commitment  INFERIOR to religious life  and  to use my services as cheap labour , paid at par with religious who don't have to spend for their roof, sickness, old age etc.  Even written  contract  totally denied  when they realised there is no canonical protection for CV .   I tried to study theology  to go to root cause of these problems faced by converts who think  catholics - especially religious are Saints !  Religious women supported a boy of their own  caste/village   to harrass me  because they felt threatened by a  CV who had freedom to speak in the classroom full of seminarians  and they always kept silent .  I objected to abuse , I lost my job in the church for trying to be authentic to my vocation.In India there  is bad theology of  religious women  who think they are brides of clergy. It is a 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' kind of evil  in Asia and Africa . Its really BAD and many innocent ,gullible, naive girls from poor parts of India literally are bought by rich religious  Institutes and  Used............In civil language this is called Human trafficking. Also done by rich religious institutes in western countries who want youngsters to look after them in their old age and continue their  institutes.

 

It is in this context that  I decided to go to the root of this 'Bride of Christ' theology in the Church. In my article I have been different in suggesting that religious are Bride of Christ as a community just as the Church community is the Bride of Christ. Why ? You think for yourself. It is not to make the devotion of religious women inferior to that of CVs  but  so that  clergy cannot fool an individual religious woman into  sex  by calling her a bride of Christ as an individual  .   If you read my blog you'll also realize that I am not Promoting CV but in fact asking whether it  is even relevant in today's world  , and if it is relevant then what form it can take in the Post-Vatican II church that speaks of equality of dignity and call to holiness of all the baptised !  I personally am discerning whether I'll be  more faithful to the call to chastity  by not being a CV  who  is treated like a bride of the clergy . It is painful when you spend years and years struggling every moment  to be faithful , paying the price for your love for Jesus and religious try to kill your  vocation of union with Christ and service to the church and some  try to  convert your charism of Love for Christ into  some  Sacred Secularity.  When I read this term in this post , Jesus knows how  I felt the twisting  in my stomach , the gut feeling that  its NOT me. My  heart and spirit  Wept.  I know i would not have suffered so much in my life for Sacred Secularity however good it may be. That's the calling of Laity .But I can also say that my involvement as a citizen, as a christian in civic duties and responsibilities is much more than most people around me . I'm a person who really loves the world that God loves .Yet I CANNOT call if my specific charism or major element of my charism.  And in my country  people of all religions are very  devout . So to say that CV is Sacred Secularity does not make  it any different from  any person of any religion  since most see everything with religious eyes .Globalisation is gradually affecting this religiousity.

 

 It looks like  my published article has not been read  and  I am being accused of  wanting to create a Hierarchy or a Sacrament out of CV ! Please search your conscience . Maybe you are saying this because you are feeling threatened or with an unconscious desire to KILL the vocation of CV or change its charism -like  religious are doing in my diocese.I am being frank and not  sorry for speaking the truth. Westerners look upon  Asians and Africans in a condescending manner as  if we are pagans or heretics when we  inculturate the faith and speak in a different terminology or eastern logic. If the language/logic/philosophy in the west was so perfect , Europe and America would not  become Post-Christian and Secular. Religious life would not fade. I know for sure that when I sent my article for publication, I requested the theological faculty to inform me if there was any doctrinal error. I even sent it to the  local authorities. In fact  my article was published  immediately next to the transcript of a talk given by the Pope's representative /the Apostolic Nuncio at a gathering  of members of the Jesuit Institute that published it.  I have enquired with several  authorities at local and universal levels and  not one has  disputed the content. I have reasons [ which I cannot share here ] to think the Holy Father has no problem if there is a discussion  in the church  along the lines that I have written about CV.

 

 

 

 

The  Discalced Carmelites I know hardly think like that. Once I spoke to a prioress regarding  something and she said,"  I will speak to Jesus  My Spouse  to help you !"  I swallowed my humiliation and reminded her that  Jesus is My Spouse too . [  I don't think  the prayers of monastics are dearer to Him  than those of CVs in the world or laity in the world who constantly offer  every moment, activity, prayer to Him for the Church and the world.  In a city where 20000 to 200000 people occupy 1 sq km/mile , thousands of laity struggle for one meal a day inspite of  hard physical work , no fixed home,  families to look after , no medical insurance -----whose prayers would be given preference? God is not blind. Are these  dozen women holier because they take solemn vows of obedience, poverty, chastity while living in a monastery   which could fetch enough money to  give a good future to tens of thousands of Dalit Christian converts in India who are discriminated against because they belong to lower strata of society ? Jesus always had perferential option for the poor. it is easy for any religious to say God Alone Suffices when they don't have to struggle for a roof , work , community to take care of them, Eucharist to support spiritually and even receive much  prestige from laity as if they are so holy in their habits that they don't need to go to the toilet. I would call such  spiritual jargon as Bull**** when it is the poor who don't even have the privacy of a toilet but  ACTUALLY depend on God trusting Him one day at a time for their survival. These are the real 'anawim'. They have not rejected the world that God created and loves so much that He sent His only Son to be incarnated and be God-With-Us.

 

I can write lots about the ARROGANCE of  Religious. 

 

 

 

 

I have written in the posts previously as follows 

[But you seem to be deliberately  overlooking this and blaming me of creating a hierarchy when it is you'll doing it ]:

 

"It is true that the Second Vatican Council  removed the concept of  degree or gradation of consecration. Even the issue of Solemn or Simple vows is now left to the internal tradition of each institute or vocation. The New Code of Canon law 1983  specifies the equality of dignity of all the baptized in the call to holiness.

 

" I'm not discussing  gradation of consecration in comparing two different rites , one for  a life of virginity , another for a life of the silence of solitude , or a profession of vows in a religious institute  etc."

 

"The consecration of virgins is considered a Sacramental. There  could be several reasons for this" ...............................

 

"There is lot of room for discussion on  the theology of the rite. But my personal opinion is that any  human being , even an unbaptised follower of Christ ,  may  reach the highest and deepest levels of holiness thru  Union with God , while a consecrated virgin may not manifest the desired  well-spring of compassion , the fruit of the Holy Spirit  in her life.  We can become too proud  of being  Bride of Christ and actually  miss the crown."

 

I have stated in the signature section The ideas expressed in the posts are my own and based on prayer and searching for the truth . We need to reflect on them with discernment and possibly with sharing of opinions , healthy debate if necessary. This will help to refine the ideas and conform them to God’s will in the ongoing search

 

 

"In yr 2003 I sent following Questions to the Congr for the Inst. of Cons. life in Rome :

 

Canon 604#1 says that we are consecrated by the Bishop. How exactly is this different from the Prayer of consecration in the Rite for the Profession of Religious Women ? In several theological articles it is said  that in the Cons. of virgins what is specific is the charismatic element in the Rite whereas in the Rite of Religious Profession what is specific is the ascetic element or the Profession of vows according to the Constitution of the Institute .............Since the Consecration takes place by the very words in the Prayer of Consecration, the Information provided by the United States Association of Consecrated Virgins says that it is Irrevocable. They say there can be no dispensation from the commitment ...........in case later in life the virgin feels a call to marriage. How far is this true ?

 

Their response : Prot.n. SpR 862-4/2003 was :

 

........ it is to be hoped that as the Rite is better known,and is studied both by the candidate and by the consecrating bishop, it will be clear that the candidate's proposito expresses her intent and the solemn prayer of the Bishop consecrates her. This is distinct from the rite of religious profession in which the profession of the evangelical counsels- all other canonical requirements being in place--consecrates the candidate to God[c.654]

 

It would be true to say that the Consecration effected through the Rite is permanent. For this reason some Bishops require periods of time with a private vow of chastity during the formation time, before accepting a candidate for the Consecration.We have , however, received the question of a possible dispensation from the proposito and from the obligations arising from the Consecration. This while regrettable, would seem would be within the competency of the Diocesan Bishop. There has not been any formal definition in this regard."

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sr. Mary Catharine, on 31 Dec 2012 - 02:43, said:

And abrideofChrist said :

 

Certainly the vow of obedience is very high.  That is why religious priests are "higher" than diocesan/secular priests.  You might say the same for religious CVs versus secular CVs.

 

Why  haven't the persons accusing me of creating a hierarchy objected to these comments ??????????????????????? just because they are in favour of religious life ??????????????

 

I wonder if God  judges religious  as consecrated because of Vows of Obedience, Poverty, Chastity   . Vows don't make anyone obedient, poor, chaste. Living these vows does. And it should make sense  when  there are millions of people outside the convents  who are relatively more obedient , actually poor and living chastity even in marriage.

 

If  the  spousal bond  in Rite of religious profession and Rite of consecration of virgins is  Same , then why does a monastic who is already consecrated  receive  the consecration as a virgin ?  Also  , as far as I know , out of the Two versions of  the Rite for Religious women, only one version of the prayer for blessing or consecration  has spousal imagery. So  it means All religious are not consecrated as brides.

 

An expert in  liturgy  would be in better position to understand difference between the prayer in rite for CV  and rite for Religious women. The Anamnesis or first part of the prayers is a  remembering of salvation history.  The Epiklesis  is  what  is different, very different . The  Vatican is clear in the response they wrote to me that the consecration of religious is   thru the vows . That of  CVs is  thru the  prayer of consecration. The prayer of blessing or consecration for religious is  more of a blessing. That for CVs is strictly a consecration. The latest translation in 2011 is very clear about this.

 

For religious it is the vows according to the constitution that are 'constitutive vows' [ I think it is theology of St Thomas Aquinas] . In case of CVs the prayer of consecration is 'constitutive'  .[ constitutive = thru the very words the consecration takes place].

 

Also , in my article when I wrote about the imprint of the Holy Trinity's Design which is like a 3-D seal, a stamp of approval.................. in the foot-note , I have written  ," What is primary in the rite for religious is the 'profession of vows' rather than the 'prayer of consecration or blessing'. In the profession of religious the woman consecrates herself through 'constitutive vows', according to the constitutions of the religious institute or congregation. The Design she internalizes is that of the charism of the institute which is expressed in its constitutions.

 

Hence to say that I am speaking of God's design like a  'seal' only for CVs and not also for religious ---- is  a false accusation .

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6mnfiq1ux814mg/3.%20article%20on%20OrdoVirginum%20VJTR%202011.pdf

 

 

This thread  has been ONE MORE INSTANCE OF ARROGANT RELIGIOUS POUNCING UPON  A WEAK  , HELPLESS  CV , Probably the West over the east, Institutions over person, Older over younger , Cradle catholic over convert , more theologically educated over lesser theologically educated , Studied knowledge over charismatic gift of creative theology etc. etc.  Even though I'm a CV , I am first  a human being. I don't feel like a human from the way religious make me a scapegoat again and again ...............

 

 

i know  God has called me to write prophetically and that I have to bear the consequences.  Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I am not sorry for what I have written about religious life. I mean it.  I  will differentiate between religious who take vows of  poverty and chastity  and don't live them and those who do live them. I will also differentiate between CVs who  claim to be Brides of Christ but  do not have  the well-spring of Compassion and live selfish  lives and those who do have love and compassion for others.

 

The Holy Father often speaks of the Dictatorship of Relativism . In such dictatorship  people see no difference between  an engagement and a marriage , truth is relativised by saying that all perspectives are equal  hence all religions are equal bearers of Truth. As far as i know the Second Vatican Council  from which the Code of Canon law 1983 is derived  clearly mention equality of dignity of the baptised . A cardinal , a  bishop , priest , deacon,  religious , cv, lay person, adult, child --ALL have equality of dignity.

 

A bishop, priest, deacon each have equality of dignity and call to holiness , but the degrees of their consecration is accepted. Why ?

 

There is plenty of material in history to show that CV is considered the theological locus for sacrament of marriage.  That's how I see this vocation.    In Jewish history, even an engaged woman was called a bride . The difference between profession of vows in a monastery followed by consecration according to rite for CV  is often explained as the former being a marriage ceremony, but the latter its consummation. That's why some theologians say there may be an ontological change in CV  which makes her In persona Church as an individual.

 

I sometimes wonder whether it would have been better for the Church not to create  the umbrella of consecrated life and add CV to it. Should the CV be a ceremony available for women of all vocations of consecrated life ,  or should it be suppressed altogether, or  should it be an antecedent to matrimony, or should diocesan  CVs, Hermits, Widows be restored as Diocesan orders while the term Consecrated life dropped and term Religious life be restored------------is the bride of Christ terminology relevant in today's world ...etc. are question I reflect upon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God's Beloved, there is plenty of room in the Church for all of the different types of consecrated and dedicated people. No monopoly exists, and to put down one vocation or group of consecrated persons as arrogant is not flattering to CVs.

 

 

Vocation Station is supposed to be a safe place where vocations to consecrated or dedicated life are encouraged and strengthened. If you want to speak negatively about the vocation or the religious in your country, you may want to start a thread in another section of PM.

 

I sincerely hope this thread goes back to calmly discussing the CV's vocation in a favorable manner.

[Antigonos]

I can't give props but I agree with both nunsense's and emmaberry's posts.

[Lilllabettt]

I think there may be a communication barrier here. It is hard to get feeling and intent across on message boards to begin with - but there are several points in this exchange that I notice an outright but very subtle break-down happening. God's Beloved please forgive me if I am wrong in thinking you are not a native English speaker.

 

 

that said ... this:

 

In India there  is bad theology of  religious women  who think they are brides of clergy. It is a 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' kind of evil  in Asia and Africa . Its really BAD and many innocent ,gullible, naive girls from poor parts of India literally are bought by rich religious  Institutes and  Used......

 

is true. There is a lot of corruption because  many religious communities are wealthy relative to others in their country. Vocations are booming there but some of it is from people joining based on impure motives. For example - I know there is a problem with priests in the developing world viewing women religious as vehicles for "safe" sex.  Really appalling, but widespread.

 

I have no doubt God's Beloved has endured in fact what many Christians only understand in theory.  May God bless you as you seek to live your vocation as you see fit.

 

Edit: I don't know about the "seal" thing. But I am surprised to hear people debating the permanence of the Consecration. I thought this was a rather settled thing --- the relevant bodies of the curia have answered this question in the affirmative several times -at least that I have seen published.  Is that information just not common knowledge among Catholics? Or am I missing something about why this is a debate?

 

Edited January 2, 2013 by Lilllabettt