iheartjp2 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Catholics and the Bourgeois Mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) A house should not have to be a product. Death should not have to be a product. Healing should not have to be a product. Learning should not have to be a product. Charity should not have to be a product. The problem is not the existence of products, but that our entire lives are dependent on products and services. We're not talking about going to the local market and buying this or that fruit. We're talking about a society where a house is something you buy, not something you create (and that's only if you're lucky, the rest of people are "housed"). Even if I wanted to build my own house, I can't. . . . . Some of this is probably covered before, but (while I'd likely agree with you regarding excessive rules and licensing by the state on things like funerals) if you're really serious about this, nothing is preventing you from ditching your laptop (or whatever corporate industrially-produced technological device you're typing from), and saving up and buying (either by yourself or with a group of like-minded people) a plot of land in some remote location, and living off the land, building your own shelter, and making your own clothes, tools and weapons. Nobody said it would be easy, but it's still a choice you could freely make, and if successful, you'd have nothing but my utmost respect and admiration for doing so. The problem is, it seems that 99% of the people who like to rail against "capitalism" and "industrial society" never make any truly serious efforts to live rugged lives independent of society and industrial products, but prefer to enjoy the various comforts and luxuries of modern industrial civilization - wile usually with implicitly or explicily demanding that government do something to punish other people who freely choose to engage in commerce and produce or buy products and services. It's always other people that need to do things differently. Edited January 9, 2013 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Some of this is probably covered before, but (while I'd likely agree with you regarding excessive rules and licensing by the state on things like funerals) if you're really serious about this, nothing is preventing you from ditching your laptop (or whatever corporate industrially-produced technological device you're typing from), and saving up and buying (either by yourself or with a group of like-minded people) a plot of land in some remote location, and living off the land, building your own shelter, and making your own clothes, tools and weapons. Nobody said it would be easy, but it's still a choice you could freely make, and if successful, you'd have nothing but my utmost respect and admiration for doing so. The problem is, it seems that 99% of the people who like to rail against "capitalism" and "industrial society" never make any truly serious efforts to live rugged lives independent of society and industrial products, but prefer to enjoy the various comforts and luxuries of modern industrial civilization - wile usually with implicitly or explicily demanding that government do something to punish other people who freely choose to engage in commerce and produce or buy products and services. It's always other people that need to do things differently. I never railed against "industrial society." I specifically stated that there is a place for industrial economy. I never called for the government to punish anyone for doing anything. I simply pointed out the consequences of what you do. Why should I go live on an isolated plot of land? I have as much a right to advocate for the kind of society I want as you do. The capitalists and industrialists have no problem engineering society according to their system...but I'm the one who is being pushy? "The meek shall inherit the earth, but the poor are the ones who inherit the debt" --De La Soul Edited January 10, 2013 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) You mistake me for a luddite or a separatist. I have no desire to create my own society, just to make the one I inherited a little more human. Edited January 10, 2013 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I never railed against "industrial society." I specifically stated that there is a place for industrial economy. I never called for the government to punish anyone for doing anything. I simply pointed out the consequences of what you do. Why should I go live on an isolated plot of land? I have as much a right to advocate for the kind of society I want as you do. The capitalists and industrialists have no problem engineering society according to their system...but I'm the one who is being pushy? "The meek shall inherit the earth, but the poor are the ones who inherit the debt" --De La Soul You mistake me for a luddite or a separatist. I have no desire to create my own society, just to make the one I inherited a little more human. I was never clear on what exactly you yourself were advocating here. So the solution to your perceived problem is individuals freely making choices to be more self-sufficient in their lives, rather than government coercion against "capitalists" and such? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I was never clear on what exactly you yourself were advocating here. So the solution to your perceived problem is individuals freely making choices to be more self-sufficient in their lives, rather than government coercion against "capitalists" and such? I'm not advocating anything. Simply pointing out the destructive effects of capitalism and industrialization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Happened to read this today, pretty much sums up my view of things: [quote]I have been trying to show that some of these historical conditions are not inevitable at all but are the working-out of willful policies that aggrandize certain interests and exclude others, that subsidize certain styles and prohibit others. But of course <i>historically</i>, if almost everybody believes the conditions are inevitable, including the policy-makers who produce them, then they are inevitable. For to cope with emergencies does not mean, then, to support alternative conditions, but further to support and institutionalize the same conditions. Thus, if there are too many cars, we build new highways; if administration is too cumbersome, we build in new levels of administration; if there is a nuclear threat, we develop anti-missile missiles; if there is urban crowding and anomie, we step up urban renewal and social work; if there are ecological disasters because of imprudent use of technology, we subsidize research and development by the same scientific corporations working for the same ecologically irrelevant motives; if there is youth alienation, we extend and intensify processing in schools; if the nation-state is outmoded as a political form, we make ourselves into a mightier nation-state. In this self-proving round the otherwise innocent style of input-output economies, games-theory strategy, and computerized social science become a trap. For the style dumbly accepts the self-proving program and cannot compute what is not mentioned. Then the solutions that emerge ride even more roughshod over what has been left out. Indeed, at least in the social sciences, the more variables one can technically compute, the less likely it is that there will be prior thinking about their relevance rather than interpretation of their combination." --Paul Goodman, "The Psychology of Being Powerless"[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I'm not advocating anything. Simply pointing out the destructive effects of capitalism and industrialization. People voluntarily choosing to lead lives of greater independence and self-sufficiency is a good thing. More government busy-bodiness and unnecessary meddling in private commerce is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I'm not advocating anything. Simply pointing out the destructive effects of capitalism and industrialization. woo. find a system please that has not had destructive effects of some kind. the industrial age has given way to the information age anyway. it also is destructive. we have an entire generation of add kids who are so overloaded with information they cannot sit still for 5 minutes without picking up a smartphone, laptop, tablet, or ipod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 The mentally ill... ...add zest to parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The mentally ill are crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The mentally ill are crazy. We're all mad, here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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