The Rich...

[Winchester]

In our system, sure. But "cost" is itself a concept of homo economicus. It's defined by how much we earn by wage labor, and measuring ourselves against cost. A house is beyond my "cost," and that inability to afford a house is part of my social definition. The idea that a HOUSE of all things, the ability to create our own dwelling in this world, is limited by "cost" says everything to me about what's wrong with how Western society has developed. Another example is "healthcare." Someone who doesn't have a hospital is defined as "underprivileged" or "underdeveloped." Health, life, and dying are defined by a medical institution, rather than by the empowering web of healing, medicines, support, culture, etc. that could be developed if we didn't define healthcare by an institution. The sign of health in our society is avoiding death...whereas, in my opinion, the sign of health should be the ability to die well (and I mean "die" in a broad sense, whether it takes 1 or 75 years).

 

None of what I'm saying means I'm against science or technology or even industry. It's a matter of how we use and define these things, and how we limit them. The goal, I think, is to have a human-scaled society, rather than endless consumption and production for the sake of consumption and production.

 

No, cost is a reality of being a limited being. If you want one thing, you must give up all the other alternatives. That is cost, however you measure it.

[Era Might]

No, cost is a reality of being a limited being. If you want one thing, you must give up all the other alternatives. That is cost, however you measure it.

 

 

You're assuming scarcity, another defining concept of homo economicus. God is not limited, and (assuming his existence) his choice to create what he created (rather than all the other possible things he could have created) was not motivated by "cost."

Edited December 24, 2012 by Era Might

[Winchester]

You're assuming scarcity, another defining concept of homo economicus. God is not limited, and (assuming his existence) his choice to create what he created (rather than all the other possible things he could have created) was not motivated by "cost."

 

I'm not saying cost motivates. Cost is a reality. Scarcity is a reality. You have to choose. Your body is scarce, as is time, as are many resources.

 

God isn't subject to the laws of nature. We are.

[Era Might]

I'm not saying cost motivates. Cost is a reality. Scarcity is a reality. You have to choose. Your body is scarce, as is time, as are many resources.

 

God isn't subject to the laws of nature. We are.

 

But to say "scarcity is a reality" is as meaningless as saying "peace is a reality." Whose peace? The ancient Roman peace (pax romana) was a very different conception of peace than the ancient Hebrew "shalom." And the modern conception of peace is also its own social construction...the peace of the modern homo economicus is an economic peace (hence the "peace corps" that is involved in nation building).

 

How can one look at the world and say it is scarce? It's only scarce according to our self-chosen wants and needs. Gas may be "scarce" in a society that runs on gas, but it's not actually "scarce." It's only scarce because we have created a need...our self-created needs are not needs in reality.

 

And what are "the laws of nature"? Is scarcity a law of nature? Or a law of our own creation?

 

Scarcity operates on the principle that everything is ours, and we must create a system to dish it out somehow. But other societies operated on the principle that what is ours is very limited, and we should not exceed our small place on this planet. Modern communism was a child of industrialization..there have been other forms of communism that worked just fine in other societies.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Era Might

[Anastasia13]

Let's just be practical here. the rich should marry me and buy me a Bently.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Light and Truth

[Winchester]

If there were no scarcity we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be no need. This is the reason we don't see people selling air (barring that it has some extra quality beyond normal air. It's super-abundant and readily available.

 

Even products that one could argue are "abundant", but that require labor are actually scarce. If I can produce enough of something to go around, but have to labor in order to do so, I am unlikely to give that away.

 

A small population may well find itself in a position to not have to ration (by price or by fiat. You described rationing by fiat) particular goods.

[Era Might]

If there were no scarcity we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be no need. This is the reason we don't see people selling air (barring that it has some extra quality beyond normal air. It's super-abundant and readily available.

 

Even products that one could argue are "abundant", but that require labor are actually scarce. If I can produce enough of something to go around, but have to labor in order to do so, I am unlikely to give that away.

 

A small population may well find itself in a position to not have to ration (by price or by fiat. You described rationing by fiat) particular goods.

 

I'm not talking about "products." Products are certainly scarce, and are created to be scarce (otherwise they wouldn't be products, they are industrial concepts). But the resources of the earth are not scarce.

 

You are projecting industrial concepts onto humanity.

[Winchester]

I'm not talking about "products." Products are certainly scarce, and are created to be scarce (otherwise they wouldn't be products, they are industrial concepts). But the resources of the earth are not scarce.

 

You are projecting industrial concepts onto humanity.

 

No, I'm dealing with opportunity cost and economic goods.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Winchester

[Era Might]

No, I'm dealing with opportunity cost.

 

Opportunity cost IS an industrial economic concept. One could just as easily see "opportunity" as a gift from the gods, not as a calculated point on an economic scale.

Opportunity cost IS an industrial economic concept. One could just as easily see "opportunity" as a gift from the gods, not as a calculated point on an economic scale.

 

And just to use a modern example, the difference can be seen in out-of-wedlock children. Catholics would never think of analyzing it in economic terms as a monetary or opportunity cost...a child is always seen by Catholics as a gift from god, and to be accepted regardless of the economic considerations.

[Winchester]

Opportunity cost IS an industrial economic concept. One could just as easily see "opportunity" as a gift from the gods, not as a calculated point on an economic scale.

 

No, opportunity cost is due to nature. You choose one thing, you necessarily reject others. Time and your body are scarce resources you must allocate.

[Era Might]

No, opportunity cost is due to nature. You choose one thing, you necessarily reject others. Time and your body are scarce resources you must allocate.

 

I just disagree. I don't believe "time is money." I don't know how such an idea can be supported from the Bible, where time is a patient unfolding, not a scarce resource. I think scarcity can only be conceived from a fear of death and a fear of the world in general.

[add]

Even the rich are hungry for love, for being cared for, for being wanted, for having someone to call their own.

[4588686]

And we have unwittingly come to the truth about who really benefits from (and has always fought for) inflation.

 

No we haven't.  

[Winchester]

I just disagree. I don't believe "time is money." I don't know how such an idea can be supported from the Bible, where time is a patient unfolding, not a scarce resource. I think scarcity can only be conceived from a fear of death and a fear of the world in general.

 

I didn't say time is money, I said it's a scarce resource. Whether you choose to trade it for money, or to trade your use of time for this or that activity, it is scarce. You can't avoid it. You posted on PM instead of many other activities. Barring some preternatural ability, your must choose how to spend your time. This isn't a moral stance: It's how we exist.

No we haven't.  

 

It's not my fault you shill for the banksters. Unwittingly, of course. I would never think you would support the crafty bastages intentionally.

[Era Might]

I didn't say time is money, I said it's a scarce resource. Whether you choose to trade it for money, or to trade your use of time for this or that activity, it is scarce. You can't avoid it. You posted on PM instead of many other activities. Barring some preternatural ability, your must choose how to spend your time. This isn't a moral stance: It's how we exist.

 

We seem to be going in circles. Yes, you choose what you want to do with your time (I won't use the word "spend"). And industrial economy does reduce the time needed for certain tasks, but it creates new tasks that require even more time. Modern transportation increases speed and creates traffic. Man today doesn't have time to make his own clothes, he has to sit in traffic, spend 18 years in a classroom, and work himself dogged 40-60 hours a week to *maybe* have the privilege of living in his own house. Industrial economy creates new "opportunity costs." And getting back to the original point, the older "costs" were at least favorable to an independent existence. The new costs sacrifice humanity for efficiency. The modern "housewife" is an economized role...the housewife holds down the fort so the husband can spend his wonderful "opportunity cost" at the office. Pre-industrial society did not have less work to do at home, but it translated the work in social and cultural terms rather than understanding it in economic terms. The modern idea of "opportunity cost" is economic, based on the idea that time used not earning money, or preparing to earn money, in the economy is wasted time. Even the modern conception of a "resource" is a product of homo economicus. Industrial economy destroyed the commons and turned the common land into "resources" for economic opportunity.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Era Might