The Rich...

[Era Might]

Just think where USA would be if they didn't have people taking the initiative to develop industry. No companies, no jobs, no running water, no electricity, no sewerage systems, no tv, no internet, no university, no hospitals, no roads.
Just lots and lots of starving, desperate people.

 

I'm not against industry within human limits and within the system we have decided upon. My point was just that we need "rich people" because that's how we devised the system. We have created a society where we are dependent on products and services provided by others. Our society is a dream society for engineers, managers, planners, employers. It's a society with masses of people who can be "provided for" and brought under your ideas and influence. Religion used to fill the role that marketing departments now play.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Era Might

[4588686]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Era Might" data-cid="2526748" data-time="1356291874"><p>
I'm not against industry within human limits and within the system we have decided upon. My point was just that we need "rich people" because that's how we devised the system. We have created a society where we are dependent on products and services provided by others. Our society is a dream society for engineers, managers, planners, employers. It's a society with masses of people who can be "provided for" and brought under your ideas and influence. Religion used to fill the role that marketing departments now play.</p></blockquote>





Go read Atlas Shrugged until you understand why Stevil is right.

[stevil]

That's interesting that all rich people have initiative and only rich people have initiative.

There are many failures too,
Many wouldbe rich whom risked it all and lost in the economic game.

[4588686]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="stevil" data-cid="2526760" data-time="1356296275"><p>
There are many failures too,<br />
Many wouldbe rich whom risked it all and lost in the economic game.</p></blockquote>

And a lot more rich people who were just given their advantage. Unlike your mythology my statement there is backed up by stats which I'm happy to cite.

[BarbTherese]

http://www.news.com.au/national/dame-elisabeth-murdoch-honouring-an-extraordinary-life/story-fncynjr2-1226538330989

it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

 

Well said.  It is not at all impossible for the rich to enter The Kingdom, but it can be hard, difficult.  Having been long ago in a position of rather well off in a wordly sense, I know how difficult it can be to say "Enough" - this is sufficient and there are far better and more important things on which to spend money. 

In speaking of the camel and the eye of a needle, Jesus was not stating an impossibility.  Rather the eye of the needle was a gate in the Jerusalem wall.  After dark, main gates were closed and only the eye of the needle left open.  This small gate meant that travellers and traders on camels had to dismount and the camels had to go down on their knees and crawl through the gate known as "the eye of the needle"

           .  Here inAustralia Dame Elisabeth Murdoch recently died.  She was an outstanding woman who did wonderful things with her wealth with disadvantaged others' interests in mind.  She was outspoken,wise yet humble and self effacing and the most ordinary of Australians in her demeanour :http://www.news.com.au/national/dame-elisabeth-murdoch-honouring-an-extraordinary-life/story-fncynjr2-1226538330989

 

I have long maintained that parents for example have the right and duty to provide for their children and comfortably if able.  However, it is also the right and duty of parents to ensure that they have their own values straight, in priority and strive to pass these on to their children and by example - and this can be another hard or difficult task if one has wordly wealth.  Never impossible, just harder or more difficult at least in some cases in comparison with someone who has only just enough in the first place.

[BarbTherese]

The rich are blessed with either the ability or the will to acquire wealth. There are those whose parents were the ones blessed with these abilities and they were blessed with wealth by their parents. How they handle that wealth in life is of course up to them and will affect their salvation.

 

Brabara Therese, do you feel sorry for the worldly wealthy like Billy Graham who do great works and charity ? Or is this pity for those you perceive as the " bad rich " What do you base your sorrow on ? Is it the medias view popularized these days that they stole monies from the poor, if so how do you feel about business owners who hire people allowing them to enjoy the comforts of life such as a roof over their heads and a full stomach and the ability to provide for their children, should they not be lauded as the providers they are ?

 

ed

 

I think my thinking is probably in line with yours.  I judge a rich person neither "good rich" nor"bad rich".  It is up to the wordly wealthy to make their own decision about how they dispose of that wealth and hopefully it will be justly realizing that wordly wealth too is a Gift of God for stewardship.  It is not 'my wealth', rather it is "His wealth of which I am the steward".   My journey from riches to rags as it were was an absolute learning curve and I chose the latter, it wasn't forced on me - although I had no idea back then what lay ahead thankfully.

 

Apparently there was a Church in London that was bombed during the blitz.  A large statue of Jesus was damaged and restored.  The hands of the statue were missing and it was decided to make no attempt to restore the hands, rather to put a plaque on the bottom of the statue "He has no hands, but yours".  We are the gateway and the gatekeepers The Lord has chosen through which to enter into His world - and if we close those gates?

 

Not relevant, just a funny story I am quite fond of.  I used to borrow books from our Catholic Lending Library.  They would post me the books I wanted and I would post them back.  On one occasion I had forgotten to post back a book and Father rang me to remind me.  But again I forgot.  The next time Father rang he said "If we dont get that book back, I am going to have to chop off your hands, Barb!".  "Oh Father" says I "I have a large statue here of Jesus and it has no hands (they had been broken and lost -though wrapped carefully - with shifting residence).  I had meant to relate the story of the statue in the blitz to Father -   "Ahhh" says Father "So Jesus has been stealing books too, has He!"

[Ed Normile]

The earth used to provide these things. Now rich people do.

 

The earth never provided these things, you gotta be confused. These things were present on the earth, yet it took hard work to come by them. A roof over ones head could be found in a cave, yet one would have to make that cave inhabitable, by removing whatever else may have chosen to live there, bats animals, insects etc. A thatched roof or a hut had to have materials collected and assembled and maintained. Food grew on the earth, that which could be harvested had to be collected and transported and prepared in some way to be eaten, that which was alive such as meat had to be captured or killed, cut up and eaten. You ever see any cave drawings depicting fat cave men?

 

These days we pay others to do our collecting, preparation, cooking, building etc. and of course this takes money. Either we steal that money or we do honest labor to obtain it, the modern day equivalance of hunting and gathering.

 

ed

Edited December 24, 2012 by Ed Normile

[r2Dtoo]

Stats are for guys whose voice didn't start cracking until they were 19.  My gut tells me the rich earned their profits, and contribute to society through employment and awesome iPad mini commercials. 

[Anomaly]

Rich or poor, they're people.  Some are rich because of advantages and cheating.  Some are poor because of sloth and laziness.  Some poeple just work hard and sometimes win, and sometimes lose.  You never win the lottery if your don't buy or steal a ticket.

[Winchester]

It's almost like we're all individuals!

[add]

the three (rich) wisemen gave the baby Jesus  Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh

 

the rich are not all bad

[4588686]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="add" data-cid="2526975" data-time="1356356835"><p>
the three (rich) wisemen gave the baby Jesus Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh<br />
<br />
the rich are not all bad</p></blockquote>

I know that. I have wealthy family. I also have poor family. I have a wealthy great uncle who used to say "if you owe the back $10,000 and can't pay it back then you're in a lot of trouble. If you owe the bank $10,000,000 and can't pay it back then the bank is in a lot of trouble.". He didn't invent that saying but having come from a poor family of German immigrants he understood the basic truth it captures: the rich and the poor do not play on an equal field. Moreover, the extremely wealthy and corporations have, as a class, used the power advantage they have by virtue of their extreme wealth to further disenfranchise the poor and middle class. Again, Im happy to refer anyone interested to some sources that do an excellent job of demonstrating this.

[Anomaly]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="add" data-cid="2526975" data-time="1356356835"><p>
the three (rich) wisemen gave the baby Jesus Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh<br />
<br />
the rich are not all bad</p></blockquote>

I know that. I have wealthy family. I also have poor family. I have a wealthy great uncle who used to say "if you owe the back $10,000 and can't pay it back then you're in a lot of trouble. If you owe the bank $10,000,000 and can't pay it back then the bank is in a lot of trouble.". He didn't invent that saying but having come from a poor family of German immigrants he understood the basic truth it captures: the rich and the poor do not play on an equal field. Moreover, the extremely wealthy and corporations have, as a class, used the power advantage they have by virtue of their extreme wealth to further disenfranchise the poor and middle class. Again, Im happy to refer anyone interested to some sources that do an excellent job of demonstrating this.

 

Let me get this straight.  The rich can be like other people and take UNFAIR advantage of the advantage they have?   The poor can take advantage of a welfare system and milk it?

OMEGERD!  People.

[4588686]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Anomaly" data-cid="2526987" data-time="1356359652"><p>
Let me get this straight. The rich can be like other people and take UNFAIR advantage of the advantage they have? The poor can take advantage of a welfare system and milk it?<br />
OMEGERD! People.</p></blockquote>

That's not what I said. I said actively persuing policies that further advantage then at the expense of the poor. Sure. Some poor people abuse the system. That's not the norm though. And I am refering to the coditions of the working poor and middle class. But if you lack the intellectual an moral integrity to actually engage the predatory aspects of the modern economy the deflecting with straw men and unimaginative sarcasm is probable a good option for you.

[Anomaly]

<quote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Anomaly" data-cid="2526987" data-time="1356359652"><p>
Let me get this straight. The rich can be like other people and take UNFAIR advantage of the advantage they have? The poor can take advantage of a welfare system and milk it?<br />
OMEGERD! People.</p></quote>

That's not what I said. I said actively persuing policies that further advantage then at the expense of the poor. Sure. Some poor people abuse the system. That's not the norm though. And I am refering to the coditions of the working poor and middle class. But if you lack the intellectual an moral integrity to actually engage the predatory aspects of the modern economy the deflecting with straw men and unimaginative sarcasm is probable a good option for you.

 
I am lacking in many things.  Happily, I have no lack of sarcasm!