Homosexual Outreach At Notre Dame

[theculturewarrior]

When I was a young man struggling with masturbation, I thought that I was the only one.  If we had a club that removed the stigma, I might have been encouraged and supported in that rather than ashamed and isolated.  Maybe LGTB Catholics would not join the club to identify with the desire so much as the stigma that society gives to them whether they embrace the Gospel or not.  And furthermore, I will try to put this as politely as possible.  I have reached midlife.  I still struggle to a greater or lesser extent the way that the majority of most men do, whether they are married (as I am) or not.  The stigma that Catholics give to this does not change human behavior at all.  I am part of a secular society that would have believe that as a disabled American that I am morally defective.  If found that attitude in the Church, I might be tempted to abandon it altogether.  This why it is important that the disenfranchised not be made to feel isolated by stigma.

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Apotheoun]

I may be misunderstanding you again, but I think that the problem here is that you do not distinguish pedophilia from homosexuality. as it pertains to the question at hand.  As a disabled American I have seen a lot of this kind of thing in life.  Society assigns stigma, often without questioning.  This is indeed a scandal that Christians need to avoid.  I agree with the initial poster who said, judge not lest ye be judged.

 

I would never equate a benign disability, and - by the way - I am a physically disabled person, with a disordered condition that involves a tendency toward an act that is intrinsically evil (i.e., homosexual sex).  There is no need for a "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" club at a Catholic school, and in fact the whole idea of the existence of such a club distorts the image of the school in question, which should not be condoning disordered inclinations or disordered actions at any level. 

[theculturewarrior]

I would never equate a benign disability, and - by the way - I am a physically disabled person, with a disordered condition that involves a tendency toward an act that is intrinsically evil (i.e., homosexual sex).  There is no need for a "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" club at a Catholic school, and in fact the whole idea of the existence of such a club distorts the image of the school in question, which should not be condoning disordered inclinations or disordered actions at any level. 

 

I have a benign disability, and I like you.  You win, hands down.

[theculturewarrior]

I would never equate a benign disability, and - by the way - I am a physically disabled person, with a disordered condition that involves a tendency toward an act that is intrinsically evil (i.e., homosexual sex).  There is no need for a "Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, Bisexual, and Questioning" club at a Catholic school, and in fact the whole idea of the existence of such a club distorts the image of the school in question, which should not be condoning disordered inclinations or disordered actions at any level. 

 

Do you ever feel though, that the Church has rejected you?  Have you ever felt that way because of your disability, etc.?  Do you not feel alone in this, or have you ever felt that way in your walk with God?

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Basilisa Marie]

So what are we supposed to do, write off anyone who admits to having non-heterosexual inclinations?  No.  I don't understand why we have this double-standard when it comes to sexual sin.   If I use my heterosexual inclinations for immoral purposes, but have a change of heart, people aren't quick to write me off as a member of the evil culture. They would accept me with open arms.   Why are we so quick to judge a group that so explicitly says that it's founded on Church teaching, just because it offers support to LGBTQ students? 

 

TCW's right.  LGBTQ people have often found nothing but rejection from Catholics, even when they try to live a holy life.  It's like they have to prove to us how Catholic they are, and THEN we might consider giving them the time of day (but woe unto them if they fall just once!).  We treat no other sinner like this.  We have prison ministries to evangelize felons.  We have support groups for women who sought an abortion.  Why must we make LGBTQ people prove how holy they are before we'll accept them as part of the fold? 

 

I do think we should give careful oversight to any group like this, because it's a delicate issue and it'd be quite easy for such a group to fall away from the Church.  But why do people feel the need to condemn it outright? Why do we have to assume that it will fail?  I know Notre Dame has a checkered recent past. But if we implicitly claim to be better Catholics than they are, I'd hope people would be a little more charitable.  

[theculturewarrior]

I think that if we as a Church reject a population without understanding who they really are, we lose the credibility we require to tell them how to live.  I have seen this over and over in my life as an American with a hidden disability.  For a college student, it is hard enough to figure yourself out without judgmental Catholics getting in the way.  I thought we would see eye to eye on that given your own story, Apoth.  There must a breach of empathy somewhere.  You are more of an authority on the subject than I am, although I do not personally identify with your assessment.  God bless you!

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Slappo]

Apo, what's your thoughts on groups like Courage which are aimed more at counceling and encouraging chaste behavior for those struggling with impure desires?

 

 

 

My concern even about groups such as Courage is it puts like minded people with homosexual desires together... I'd be somewhat concerned that a chastity group might end up being a place to hook up for some. This concern probably comes somewhat from my background of a mother who met her homosexual partner on a Catholic women's retreat though.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Slappo

[Not The Philosopher]

I too find the organization's willingness to use the GBLTQ acronym a bit troubling, and don't think that it's a good idea to be sexually identifying yourself as anything other than male or female. I myself view my SSA as something that I have (and, unfortunately, will likely have to some degree for the remainder of this life) as opposed to something that constitutes what I am. I'm a Christian before anything else.

 

I do disagree somewhat with the whole, 'keep it for confession' notion. If we as a civilization were still holding chastity to be a virtue, I would probably agree with it. But these days there is just so much agitprop regarding sex out there that it needs to be countered. Particularly in the case of people with SSA, you're basically force-fed the standard narrative that the only way to be true to yourself is to embrace the gay lifestyle and that all other options lead to despair. So I think the public witness of people with SSA who are chaste and devout provides a counter to that narrative. Of course it can get out of hand, and we just need to be prudent about it.

[MIKolbe]

I think if this is an outreach to help people conform themselves to Christ, then great.  

 

If it is something to help people validate their personal identity in spite of Christ, then not great.

 

But then, I feel the same way about AA/NA groups.

[BigJon16]

I think that there are a lot of people who misunderstand SSA, even those who have it.

 

 

 

To the Catholic who realizes that they are "primarily and exclusively" attracted to members of their same gender,  there is a lot of uncertainty and trouble of the heart.

 

SSA is not just about a "sexual" physical attraction, or eros for those more Greekly inclined. SSA often is only different from Opposite Sex Attraction in that one is attracted to the opposite sex, and the other attracted to the same sex. This means that there is an emotional part to it as well as a "lustful" part. It cannot be compared to "struggling with masturbation." SSA and masturbation belong in two different categories, although the can former can lead to the latter.

 

So, when a person with SSA has a crush on someone with their same gender, it tends to tug their heart in one direction, yet their love for and faith in Christ pulls them in the opposite direction. This can cause the person to become brokenhearted. It is akin to feeling an extreme sense/desire/need/affection for something that you know you cannot have. It literally tears your heart in two.

 

To face this brokenheartedness alone would be foolish, and it isn't meant to be faced alone. One thing that really helps to heal this brokenheartedness is a recognition that we were not made for our desires and affections, but rather for something greater, Love with a capital L. The kind of Love that the Gospel is all about, the kind of Love by which Christ loves the Church. The kind of Love by which the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world.

 

 

This cannot be realized and nurtured alone. It comes down to the great effectiveness of a support group that completely understands the way you feel without you having to describe it. This support, this understanding can be the "make or break" between a person with SSA embracing it as who they are and turning away from Christ, or embracing it as the cross that it is and growing closer to Christ not as a "gay person" but as a man no different from anyone else.

 

 

 

So, I think that if this ND group is done the way that it should, you are going to have quite a few saints coming out of it. If not, then there will be a lot of "coming out" just not in the direction of sainthood. No pun intended..

 

The best thing that we can do here as a phamily is to pray for ND, for the group, and for anyone struggling with SSA.

 

[theculturewarrior]

Although this issue hits for close to home for me, I've decided not to fly off the handle.  I think I understand why this issue is so important to me.  It is because homo sapiens is a semi-monogamous species.  Our natural inclination is to cheat, for both men and women.  The same is true for heterosexuals.  Trust me, I have refused the advances of married women.  It is not easy for a married man to do, and it only by the grace of God and the gratitude owed my wife by this disabled American that I am able to remain monogamous.  We all have a natural tendency to evil.  The difference with homosexuals is that they look different.  They dress differently.  They speak differently, and I can say with the confidence of empathy 99% of them are only looking for Christ, always just that.  This is the way God made them.  It does not matter whether it is nature or nurture.  God is the author and designer of their lives.  My disability responds well to treatment, and I can look like everyone else when things are going well.  They cannot take medicine for the way God made them.  My stigma will go away but theirs will not.  It seems like a heartbreaking place to be, and I would not wish that on my worse enemy.

Edited December 22, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

My wife is looking over my shoulder and telling me that I have fought enough stigma today.  Happy Holidays, Phatmass!  God bless you!

[stevil]

Hopefully this will encourage them to pursue Godly lifestyles despite their temptations.

Unless someone is gay and looking for a partner, I don't see what business it is of anyone to worry about other people's legal and concentual sexual habbits.

[Amppax]

I think if this is an outreach to help people conform themselves to Christ, then great.  

 

If it is something to help people validate their personal identity in spite of Christ, then not great.

 

But then, I feel the same way about AA/NA groups.

 

Best post.