eagle_eye222001 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html PORTLAND -- Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire. "I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?,'" he said. The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar. "He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side." The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter. "As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said. Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision. "I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself." The gunman was dead, but not before taking two innocent lives with him and taking the innocence of everyone else. "I don't ever want to see anyone that way ever," said Meli. "It just bothers me." http://www.therightperspective.org/2012/12/16/gun-owner-confronted-oregon-mall-shooter/ An unusual good article from the huffington post that recognizes the efforts of the conceal carry guy who prevented the shooter from continuing his spree. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/brad-linzy/second-amendment-gun-sandy-hook_b_2312565.html Before I delve into the philosophical particulars of gun ownership in America and the various attitudes toward it, I'd like to first express how heartbroken I am at the recent shooting in Connecticut. As a father and gun owner, I could not be more sickened by this event. The debate on where blame properly belongs is an important one, but I believe neither the Second Amendment nor lawful gun owners are to blame. The story of why firearms are considered an unalienable right in my country and why this right is still so treasured by so many Americans has its roots in history. In the Colonial era, when the 13 American colonies were under British rule, the King treated the colonists like second class subjects of the British Empire. They were not allowed representation in Parliament, were routinely were forced to quarter English soldiers in their homes, and were taxed heavily to pay for the King's other military adventures and extravagances. The final straw was broken for colonists on 19 April 1775 when British troops were sent to Lexington and Concord to confiscate the firearms of farmers. The only thing standing between the colonists and further subjectivity was their firearms. King George knew this and so did the colonists. When the Revolution was finally won and the Constitution crafted, the framers decided that a Bill of Rights containing a non-exhaustive list of the most important rights of individuals, including the right to keep and bear arms, was in order. The reasons for this were rooted in the contrast between the new American ideal of individualism and the subjectivity they had hitherto experienced under British rule. It was also important because the States were expected to maintain their own "well regulated" militias in the event of another invasion. These militias were composed of the same common folk who had won the Revolution, basically every man capable of handling a weapon was expected to respond if called upon. Today, Switzerland has a similar arrangement. In the absence of a standing army, every Swiss household is required to carry a firearm and be trained in its use. Consequently, Switzerland has some of the lowest crime rates, not only in Europe, but in the world. For those who think the above history lesson and vigilance against tyranny anachronistic or irrelevant in modern times, I suggest studying the examples of the past century where firearms were successfully taken from citizens - countries such as Germany, the Soviet Union, Turkey, China, Uganda, Guatemala and Cambodia to name but a few. Despotic leaders in these countries killed untold millions of their own citizens after depriving them of their rights to bear arms. In these extreme cases, such deprivation clearly did not guarantee security. In less extreme cases like in Australia, crime rates rose drastically after lawful citizens were deprived of their firearms. Likewise, in cities in the US where guns have been banned and in States where gun control is strictest, crime and murder rates remain well above the national average. The fallacy in many gun control arguments lies in the assumption that laws magically create the conditions they intend to create. It is far more common that more laws and regulations against something only create an unintended black market for the object of the ban or regulation. Just as criminalization of marijuana or heroin has not stopped their use or proliferation, criminalization of gun ownership will not stop gun use or the proliferation or firearms. The only people it will routinely disarm are the law abiding. This underscores the other main fallacy of anti-gun arguments, which is that criminals, particularly of the type that premeditate mass killings, have any interest in laws. In my State of Indiana and many other States, law-abiding citizens are allowed to apply for a license to carry a concealed weapon. The application assures that you are not mentally handicapped, unstable, or have a criminal record. I carry such a weapon, not out of fear, but because as a father and husband, I feel a personal responsibility to provide as much security as I can for my family. If we ever had the grave misfortune of finding ourselves in a public place where a shooter decides to attack innocent people, I will have the means to return fire and protect my family and the other innocent people around me. Police cannot be everywhere and they have a poor record of stopping mass shootings by themselves. It has been a common occurrence in many of the less publicized shooting sprees that common citizens have stopped the killer by returning fire with legal handguns or have managed to disarm the assailant with the mere threat of return fire. In one recent incident, which was not widely publicized, a licensed gun owner thwarted what could have been a much worse incident after training his firearm on a shooter in a shopping mall in Portland, Oregon. The shooter had already killed two people, but after realising he wasn't the only armed person present, turned the gun on himself. The sensational stories of killings involving high numbers of people have invariably occurred in locations, such as schools, where firearms are strictly prohibited. Efforts are currently underway in some States to require a certain number of school faculty be armed and trained in crisis management, providing at least some security against mass shootings. I applaud these efforts. In conclusion, while I understand the emotional trauma these mass shootings have on all of us, I have to caution against reacting emotionally with respect to gun control legislation. I would also urge readers outside the US to please consider alternate perspectives, data, and anecdotal evidence in support of the right to bear arms before arriving at your ultimate conclusions on the subject. In an ideal world there would be no need for weapons. There would be no borders. We would love and respect one another as human beings. Unfortunately, in such an imperfect world, imperfect solutions are sometimes necessary to avoid worse results. The historical track record of countries successfully disarming their populations while maintaining civic order and more importantly, freedom from despotism, is not good. As an American, I am far more concerned about my own government and its propensity for using drone attacks against children in foreign countries than I am of my legally armed friends and neighbors. Edited December 17, 2012 by eagle_eye222001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 An unusual good article from the huffington post that recognizes the efforts of the conceal carry guy who prevented the shooter from continuing his spree. How did he prevent anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadrePioOfPietrelcino Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The inference from the article is when the gun owner said basically..." He saw me then shot himself" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 One example of a concealed carry somewhat helping in a tragic situation where people still died isn't enough to alter my generally negative opinion of concealed carry laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 ^ Have you looked at any of the statistics behind CCW? Its been in place for decades, now in almost every state, and it has not been a problem for crime. In fact, all the stats i have seen collected indicate that people with CCW licenses are one of the most law abiding groups in the country, committing crimes(violent and non) at a tiny fraction of the rate of the general population. If CCW was a problem you would be hearing about people abusing it all the time, and so far that hasnt happened. It hasnt resulted in huge shootouts, the wild west, blood in the streets or anything else that critics predicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 ^ Have you looked at any of the statistics behind CCW? Its been in place for decades, now in almost every state, and it has not been a problem for crime. In fact, all the stats i have seen collected indicate that people with CCW licenses are one of the most law abiding groups in the country, committing crimes(violent and non) at a tiny fraction of the rate of the general population. If CCW was a problem you would be hearing about people abusing it all the time, and so far that hasnt happened. It hasnt resulted in huge shootouts, the wild west, blood in the streets or anything else that critics predicted. I don't have any problem with concealed carry in itself but the article Eagle Eye linked is stupid and reaching in a kind of pathetic way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The second article, yeah. Im happy with the testimony from the first guy, who had the CCW. He didnt take a dangerous shot that could have hurt other people, the guy carrying nearby when Gabrielle Giffords was shot showed similar restraint in a dangerous stressful situation. And it seems his presence was enough to get the guy with the jammed rifle to kill himself. That is often all it takes, those guys dont want to be shot or caught, and typically kill themselves as soon as they see police/armed people/etc, or even believe they are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The second article, yeah. Im happy with the testimony from the first guy, who had the CCW. He didnt take a dangerous shot that could have hurt other people, the guy carrying nearby when Gabrielle Giffords was shot showed similar restraint in a dangerous stressful situation. I mean the first article. The article is trying to insinuate that a CCWer stopped or mitigated the Portland shootings but provides no real argument. They guy, who didn't take the shot and ducked into the store, feels sure that they guy killed himself because he saw guy with a gun not engage him? And it seems his presence was enough to get the guy with the jammed rifle to kill himself. That is often all it takes, those guys dont want to be shot or caught, and typically kill themselves as soon as they see police/armed people/etc, or even believe they are there. How does it 'seem'' that way? He shot himself because he was so worried about being shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I wasnt putting too much store into his assertion that he stopped it, it didnt even seem like he said that himself but rather that it was blown up afterwards. If his story is true though, I think he did the right thing in not taking a shot if there were other people around behind hi,. As for the guy shooting himself after seeing him, it seems to be the way it goes with these shooters, if they are still around by the time the police show up, they tend to off themselves rather than get shot at or captured. Not sure how real this whole thing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Well, we do know the CC holder failed to fire a reckless volley at the shooter, with every shot missing, only to land in the body of an innocent bystander. Nor was he mowed down when the (highly trained, possibly infallible) police finally showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Has anyone heard of Joel Myrick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Has anyone heard of Joel Myrick? I had to google his name, but I do remember his story. No, they never do seem to talk about that case, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Maybe I just have a hard time understanding why someone would need a concealed carry permit, especially in a place like Lake Oswego where the Clackamas Town Center shooting took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Maybe I just have a hard time understanding why someone would need a concealed carry permit, especially in a place like Lake Oswego where the Clackamas Town Center shooting took place. Well, there was a pretty good reason to have one in the Clackamas mall recently... Yeah, Joel Myrick, for anyone who doesnt know, is the school principle who stopped this shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting with a handgun he had in his car. No one ever seems to talk about that, unfortunately it seems his fellow teachers turned against him, even though he saved lives, student and teacher, all because he used a gun and dont you know gunz r bad. He didnt even shoot anyone. There have been a few others where a citizen carrying a gun made the difference A school shooting where two other students got guns from their cars and confronted the shooter, stopping the shooting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting Scroll down to the New Life Church shooting, guy came in with rifle and handguns killing 2 and wounding 3 others before one of the church members(former LEO, with CCW permit acting as security) pulled her concealed gun and shot him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings CCW stopping a stabbing spree http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx Also, there was the Luby's Massacre, where 24 adults were killed and another 20 injured. One of the people in there normally carried a pistol, but decided to follow the local law and left it in her car before going into the restaurant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJFAvA-ZUE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Maybe I just have a hard time understanding why someone would need a concealed carry permit, uh, to protect themselves/their families when they're out and about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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