Why I Am No Longer An Atheist Part 2

[theculturewarrior]

I suppose I shall assume concession on the first point with regard to how a Christian ought to live and fear.

 

Point 2 here has not been fully addressed.

 

This is from post 9.

 

My initial post only discussed what the Cross meant to the early Christians and how it pertains to the problem of evil today.  There is still a kind of suffering that does not fall under that category.  This what the Church calls "sharing in the suffering of Christ."  I believe that we suffer for happiness.  Let me explain.

 

Happiness is the end and objective of love.  Love is the means to happiness.  You cannot love someone if you do not care whether or not they are happy, at the very least looking at the big picture.  God is love.  His objective is happiness.  This what it means when John says that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son."  Everything God does he does with love.  Therefore, everything we suffer, if it comes from him, we suffer for happiness.  I would not be able to write my initial post if this were not true.

 

Consider that a very large part of what we suffer in life, we cause ourselves needlessly, but if we identify the motive of Christ's suffering, happiness, we can use our suffering for happiness too.  This is what it means to share in the suffering of Christ, and to proclaim the Kingdom of God.  It is Kingdom of happiness, on earth and in heaven, and we proclaim it one cross at a time, as a conquistador plants his flag.

[4588686]

I think you misunderstand the sacrament of penance.  Forgiveness is conferred by God the moment we turn away from sin.  The sacrament is to help us turn away from sin.  It required by the Christian to participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist when a mortal sin is committed, but as a matter of dogma, forgiveness is conferred the moment the Christian repents.

 

I understand that.  I went to Catholic school for almost a decade and wanted to be a monk for most of high school.  It's still absurd.  I feel bad for something so I go to a Priest and am therefore am reconciled to heaven but God forbid a 16 year old not feel sufficiently tormented and guilty after masturbating.

[theculturewarrior]

I understand that.  I went to Catholic school for almost a decade and wanted to be a monk for most of high school.  It's still absurd.  I feel bad for something so I go to a Priest and am therefore am reconciled to heaven but God forbid a 16 year old not feel sufficiently tormented and guilty after masturbating.

 

There is no satisfying response that I can make to you.  I am not even going to try.  I have had to make sense of this myself because of my disability.  It gives me unusual energy at times.  I just do not think that there any sensitive response that I can make, and that sensitivity is mandatory here.  This is because LGTB Catholics are called to holiness in a very radical and difficult way.  There is no way I can explain that, or demand that of you.  It would be bigotted for me to even try.

Edited December 19, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[4588686]

There is no satisfying response that I can make to you.  I am not even going to try.  I have had to make sense of this myself because of my disability.  It gives me unusual energy at times.  I just do not think that there any sensitive response that I can make, and that sensitivity is mandatory here.  This is because LGTB Catholics are called to holiness in a very radical and difficult way.  There is no way I can explain that, or demand that of you.  It would be bigotted for me to even try.

 

 

 

I'm not gay.  

[theculturewarrior]

deleted for inappropriate humor.

Edited December 19, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

I'm not gay.  

 

Then I guess the key to your objection is that God judges our sins much more mercifully then we judge them ourselves.  (By the way, I have never felt more of fool than I do right now).  Guilt is often unproductive and has more to do with Catholic culture than sin and contrition.  I knew a family who lived in the country, and they made their kids go to confession for missing mass... but they didn't take their kids to mass.  Guilt is often used in Catholic culture as a kind of bogeyman to manipulate children, even when what conscience requires is understood.  It really has nothing do with the justice of God that confession should be about.

Edited December 19, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

I'm not gay.  

 

You have become less of an inspiration to me.

[Kevin]

I understand that.  I went to Catholic school for almost a decade and wanted to be a monk for most of high school.  It's still absurd.  I feel bad for something so I go to a Priest and am therefore am reconciled to heaven but God forbid a 16 year old not feel sufficiently tormented and guilty after masturbating.

 

The Catechism sort of says its not that big a deal "force of habit" and such language. Masturbation-guilt mostly comes from society. However, part of me wishes I had maintained more guilt about that, because I have little doubt that my failure to start any relationships with women has something to do with my exhaustion of the amorous impetus in that way.

 

I think even Freud and Wittgenstein recognized the value of confession as a means of therapy. Of course, if you wrong someone personally, you obviously need to take care of that with them; but I have always found psychological benefit from confession. Also, personally, excepting that one thing, from my experience as a teacher, 16-year-olds could stand to have stronger feelings of guilt about a whole host of things.

[Fidei Defensor]

I understand that.  I went to Catholic school for almost a decade and wanted to be a monk for most of high school.  It's still absurd.  I feel bad for something so I go to a Priest and am therefore am reconciled to heaven but God forbid a 16 year old not feel sufficiently tormented and guilty after masturbating.

 

No one is saying you can't be reconciled to God ONLY by confession—that is between someone and God. However, confession is given to us to help us overcome sin and receive forgiveness.

 

Guilt has a lot to do with formation of conscience, and as mentioned, can also be affected by society.

[Anastasia13]

My initial post only discussed what the Cross meant to the early Christians and how it pertains to the problem of evil today.  There is still a kind of suffering that does not fall under that category.  This what the Church calls "sharing in the suffering of Christ."  I believe that we suffer for happiness.  Let me explain.

 

Happiness is the end and objective of love.  Love is the means to happiness.  You cannot love someone if you do not care whether or not they are happy, at the very least looking at the big picture.  God is love.  His objective is happiness.  This what it means when John says that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son."  Everything God does he does with love.  Therefore, everything we suffer, if it comes from him, we suffer for happiness.  I would not be able to write my initial post if this were not true.

 

Consider that a very large part of what we suffer in life, we cause ourselves needlessly, but if we identify the motive of Christ's suffering, happiness, we can use our suffering for happiness too.  This is what it means to share in the suffering of Christ, and to proclaim the Kingdom of God.  It is Kingdom of happiness, on earth and in heaven, and we proclaim it one cross at a time, as a conquistador plants his flag.

 

So God's way of loving me to bring me happiness was to make me suffer? Not all suffering is something we cause ourselves. I didn't put away the stew that broke my toe. If the pain of a broken bone was to make me focus on things of eternal worth, why would God put distractions in me way? Am I useless for the Kingdom unless I suffer? And why I am to bear the burden of this if I am useless without suffering when God made me who is flawed?

[Anastasia13]

The Catechism sort of says its not that big a deal "force of habit" and such language. Masturbation-guilt mostly comes from society. However, part of me wishes I had maintained more guilt about that, because I have little doubt that my failure to start any relationships with women has something to do with my exhaustion of the amorous impetus in that way.

 

I think even Freud and Wittgenstein recognized the value of confession as a means of therapy. Of course, if you wrong someone personally, you obviously need to take care of that with them; but I have always found psychological benefit from confession. Also, personally, excepting that one thing, from my experience as a teacher, 16-year-olds could stand to have stronger feelings of guilt about a whole host of things.

 

What do you mean by, "The Catechism sort of says its not that big a deal "force of habit" and such language"?

 

"Masturbation-guilt mostly comes from society." That guilt in my experience comes almost exclusively from Christianity and Christian communities, though Orthodox Jews will also object to such actions.

 

(speaking from a primarily non-Catholic Christian background) If we attached less shame and guilt and allowed more instruction and openness, then maybe confession would not be needed as much.

[theculturewarrior]

So God's way of loving me to bring me happiness was to make me suffer? Not all suffering is something we cause ourselves. I didn't put away the stew that broke my toe. If the pain of a broken bone was to make me focus on things of eternal worth, why would God put distractions in me way? Am I useless for the Kingdom unless I suffer? And why I am to bear the burden of this if I am useless without suffering when God made me who is flawed?

 

That was not the meaning that I intended to convey.  Consider the example of Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta.  The trauma of her day-to-day work essentially robbed of the possibility of happiness in the this world.  I assure you that she made that sacrifice for happiness though, just not her own.  Be merciful and please do not reply.

[theculturewarrior]

I forgot to mention something else.  There is a suffering that we do not choose or self-inflict, for example, take the case of a disability.  If illness segregates me from society, I have only to look at the Cross to see that Christ suffered the same way, whether it is ridicule or chronic pain.  Suffering can be used to bring us closer to God, and it can be offered to God as a sacrifice and a prayer.  When this happens, it is an insight into the mind of Christ and an honor.  Light and Truth, Phatmass will thank you if you do not respond.  You may upset some people if you do.

Edited December 21, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Kevin]

So God's way of loving me to bring me happiness was to make me suffer? Not all suffering is something we cause ourselves. I didn't put away the stew that broke my toe. If the pain of a broken bone was to make me focus on things of eternal worth, why would God put distractions in me way? Am I useless for the Kingdom unless I suffer? And why I am to bear the burden of this if I am useless without suffering when God made me who is flawed?

 

From a biological perspective, the pain in your toe is there to to keep you from wrecking your body by not putting it on ice and in a cast. I think that even without the Fall, pain in this ordinary sense would still happen, but our internal response to that pain would be different, and it would not distress us in the way it does. If you think about it, can't you describe the way pain is painful, other than the fact that when you feel it you want it to stop?

 

Brain science has also shown that pain is important to the development of empathy. Indeed, I recall reading that Adam Lanza may have had a similar case of Congenital Insensitivity to pain as the one mentioned here. I think, in learning to empathize with each others pain, we grow to understand and love each other in a new way. In this way, I think that pain cannot be thought of as a useless distraction, but as something that, by overcoming, we ennoble our hearts. Of course, this is not to say physical or mental pain is necessary for goodness, but I would say it certainly helps.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Kevin

[Kevin]

That was not the meaning that I intended to convey.  Consider the example of Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta.  The trauma of her day-to-day work essentially robbed of the possibility of happiness in the this world.  I assure you that she made that sacrifice for happiness though, just not her own.  Be merciful and please do not reply.

 

Sometimes I have deep misgivings about the nature of Mother Terresa's work. Reading of her work, I really feel that she overemphasized the value of suffering, almost to the point of fetishizing it.  I think she basically put most of the money donated to her order under a mattress rather than take any steps that might have alleviated some of the physical suffering and discomfort of those in her care. I am not condemning her, and letting the dying fear loved and supported is more important than just giving them blankets and medicine. But if she could have done both, it would have been better for her to do so.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Kevin