Why I Am No Longer An Atheist Part 2

[Fidei Defensor]

You would have gone to hell had you died a month ago.  Would that have been warranted?  Were you only fulfilling yourself in the time that you lost your faith?     

 

Yes, I was only fulfilling myself.

 

And the straightforward answer would be yes, I would have gone to hell. I willfully turned from the Church. HOWEVER, we don't know how God works. So maybe I wouldn't have.

[theculturewarrior]

"Proof" is a funny word. I think there is at least one can proof a la Aristotle that there is a necessary existence, non contingent Existence, since the alternative is an infinite regress.

 

I think the gods of various religions, if any of them are true, put out the way they would like humans to act it various holy texts. No, there is no evidence these are true. To me, since I do feel there is an necessary existence which might be a Mind, I take the idea of what I would do if I were that mind (that is, if I were God) and I see which one matches up. I chose Christianity because I prefer its resolution to the problem of evil in Christ's suffering, since Christ is both God and Man, and since it doesn't dismiss the body, as in the resurrection.

 

A lot of your objections can be answered by appealing to invincible ignorance. If people didn't know about Christianity but they still tried to be good, I think they can be saved. From my view, Hell is for those who know about Christianity and what it is about, and reject it. That's why a judgment is needed, because those "bad" souls are just the souls that rejected God, and in order for their rejection and their will to be complete, they can't be forced to be with the God they don't want.

 

Of course, I may be wrong and there may just be nothing when we die. I hope not, but it may be so. Mostly, I am just working with what seems to make at least a little sense to me, and keeps me from losing hope about life in general.

 

I am no longer needed here, thanks be to God!

Edited December 18, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

Faith is spiritual, Kevin.  God speaks to the soul.  I am going to pray the rosary everyday, God willing, and I will think of you.  I will ask that God will speak to your soul and strengthen your faith.  When he does, you will make a lot of people think serious thoughts about God.  Thanks be to God.

[Kevin]

Faith is spiritual, Kevin.  God speaks to the soul.  I am going to pray the rosary everyday, God willing, and I will think of you.  I will ask that God will speak to your soul and strengthen your faith.  When he does, you will make a lot of people think serious thoughts about God.  Thanks be to God.

 

Well thanks man, I do feel a bit better. I was just in a funk. I am probably always going to have to deal with doubt and anxiety, but it usually isn't as bad as it was a little while ago. I know this is going to sound bad, but when I read about what happened in Connecticut, at first I thought, this is the kicker, Ivan Karamazov was right, I need to give the ticket back. But then I started crying, and then I thought, why am I crying? And it was because it was so pathetic and miserable and unjust that this had happened - it was sad, in other words - and that was why I was crying. But if life meant nothing, there was no reason to cry about this, or anything. But somehow, I didn't want to stop crying. I really didn't even know who I was crying for either, myself or the kids or all mankind. And then, I think I went to McDonalds and then took a nap, and even though I still felt bad, I wasn't worried. So that was something. And here I am today.

 

Oh, and yeah, I would like to do that. I think I've said, I'm like a poet. I'm in an MFA program I guess, so I'm at least sort of a poet. But I've never been able to write any about God. One day though.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Kevin

[stevil]

"Proof" is a funny word. I think there is at least one can proof a la Aristotle that there is a necessary existence, non contingent Existence, since the alternative is an infinite regress.

Having a magical god that has always existed seems to be a very lazy unscientific way of explaining stuff, it doesn't really get rid of the problem of infinite regress. One can always ask but where did god come from, what is god made of, how can god have knowledge when there is no existence. To simply assert that he has always been, that he has always known is imaginative and lazy.
Infinite regress might simply be the quantum vacuum, an unintelligent state of "nothing", we just don't know all the answers yet, but it is really interesting to see what the scientists discover.

 
I chose Christianity because I prefer its resolution to the problem of evil in Christ's suffering, since Christ is both God and Man, and since it doesn't dismiss the body, as in the resurrection.

You like the story, so you choose to believe, akin to wishful thinking.

 
From my view, Hell is for those who know about Christianity and what it is about, and reject it. That's why a judgment is needed, because those "bad" souls are just the souls that rejected God, and in order for their rejection and their will to be complete, they can't be forced to be with the God they don't want.

I reject a god that hides, I reject a god that requires faith, I reject a god that requires obedience, I reject a god that sends people to be tortured for eternity, I reject a god that requires worship, I reject a god that inspires people to burn witches, I reject a god that inspires people to oppress gay people, I reject a god that inspires people that woman are just a support for men. I happily reject the Christian god. Am I a "bad" soul? No I am not!

[theculturewarrior]

Well thanks man, I do feel a bit better. I was just in a funk. I am probably always going to have to deal with doubt and anxiety, but it usually isn't as bad as it was a little while ago. I know this is going to sound bad, but when I read about what happened in Connecticut, at first I thought, this is the kicker, Ivan Karamazov was right, I need to give the ticket back. But then I started crying, and then I thought, why am I crying? And it was because it was so pathetic and miserable and unjust that this had happened - it was sad, in other words - and that was why I was crying. But if life meant nothing, there was no reason to cry about this, or anything. But somehow, I didn't want to stop crying. I really didn't even know who I was crying for either, myself or the kids or all mankind. And then, I think I went to McDonalds and then took a nap, and even though I still felt bad, I wasn't worried. So that was something. And here I am today.

 

Oh, and yeah, I would like to do that. I think I've said, I'm like a poet. I'm in an MFA program I guess, so I'm at least sort of a poet. But I've never been able to write any about God. One day though.

 

Poetry is the foundation of civilization.  The Bible would be nothing without it.  My favorite period of poetry is the Anglo-Saxon period, which (for the uninitiated) has a very sacred undercurrent.  I think the trick for you to write sacred poetry is to pray sacred poetry.   It will get into your soul and you will start to speak it like a native language.  I highly recommend the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

And when you are established, please write a fantasy novel.  It will help the cause.

[Kevin]

Ah, I realized the things I said in this post were meaningless, so I deleted them. So, just thought I'd say that.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Kevin

[4588686]

Yes, I was only fulfilling myself.

 

How so?

 

 

And the straightforward answer would be yes, I would have gone to hell. I willfully turned from the Church. HOWEVER, we don't know how God works. So maybe I wouldn't have.

 

Why?  What about you has substantively changed that merited eternal torture five seconds prior to stepping into the confessional.  Grace?  That's weak.  You're no better or worse a person than before a Priest started waving his hands around in front of you and declaring you absolved but now suddenly you merit heaven where before you merited damnation?  That's a really petty system of ethics for God to have.

[Kevin]

Poetry is the foundation of civilization.  The Bible would be nothing without it.  My favorite period of poetry is the Anglo-Saxon period, which (for the uninitiated) has a very sacred undercurrent.  I think the trick for you to write sacred poetry is to pray sacred poetry.   It will get into your soul and you will start to speak it like a native language.  I highly recommend the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

And when you are established, please write a fantasy novel.  It will help the cause.

 

 

 

I actually already have a fantasy novel in my head (the story). I just am not very good at sustained writing, because I need to make every paragraph perfect. This is why I am a poet.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Kevin

[Fidei Defensor]

How so?

 

 

 

Why?  What about you has substantively changed that merited eternal torture five seconds prior to stepping into the confessional.  Grace?  That's weak.  You're no better or worse a person than before a Priest started waving his hands around in front of you and declaring you absolved but now suddenly you merit heaven where before you merited damnation?  That's a really petty system of ethics for God to have.

 

I was only fulfilling myself via my very selfish tendencies. Its personal stuff.

 

In regards to the forgiveness — the difference between the before and after was the choices I made. I made the choice to return to the Church and God, to make the act of penance as a way to remove the sins of my past selfish choices.  I haven't merited anything, rather, I made a choice to go back to God.  That was the act that brought me closer to deserving a chance at heaven — my willful assent to the faith.

 

Yes, God looks at the sins I've committed willingly in the past and forgives them (assuming my intent to not commit them again.) However, only God can truly judge the soul, so who knows what is possible. We do know that confession is a guaranteed forgiveness (again, assuming we repent.) But for all we know, its not the only way to be forgiven. Thats between God and his creatures.

That being said, I have always personally believed that God wouldn't likely condemn a person to hell who reached the conclusion of agnosticism or atheism by use of their logic and reason (rather than out of malice or anger) and have lived a good life.

[theculturewarrior]

Thank you Lord.  Phatmass, let me sleep!

[Anastasia13]

The problem with a refusal to live in fear is that sometimes fear is a good thing. I am afraid to touch a pan straight out of the oven. Why? Because I will burn myself. My fear of being burnt like that keeps me from doing dumb things. Rejecting all fear like that makes us do dumb things that harm us.  Therefore, Christianities refusal to live in fear creates a self-destructive way of life, be it early death of cognitive failure to develop critical thinking skills and thus fulfill ones true potential.

 

 

 

If you really love someone, you don't want to see them in pain. A "loving" God would rather we reject Him and fall into more suffering than act enough to stop our suffering.

 

I suppose I shall assume concession on the first point with regard to how a Christian ought to live and fear.

 

Point 2 here has not been fully addressed.

 

This is from post 9.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Light and Truth

[theculturewarrior]

Richard Dawkins is the obvious choice.

I haven't read any of his books but I was at a book store and read the first few pages of "The magic of reality" seemed well written, well thought out.

 

I read the God Delusion.  It was a good book, but a little emotional.  What I took home from it is that atheists and agnostics are discriminated against by Christians.  I believe that and I am against it.  It really bothered me, and for that I was glad I read it.  I also read the Selfish Gene years ago.  He is a great man with a lot to contribute to the body of knowledge, although naturally, I disagree with him on many things.  And there are many a priori assumptions in his atheist work.

I actually already have a fantasy novel in my head (the story). I just am not very good at sustained writing, because I need to make every paragraph perfect. This is why I am a poet.

 

Same here.  My prose is poetry in paragraph form.  It works very nicely but it is unsustainably labor intensive.  I usually don't make it past page 9.

[theculturewarrior]

Then again, to be fair, a priori assumptions are a part of day to day life and an intuitive part of being a Christian.

Edited December 19, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

How so?

 

 

 

Why?  What about you has substantively changed that merited eternal torture five seconds prior to stepping into the confessional.  Grace?  That's weak.  You're no better or worse a person than before a Priest started waving his hands around in front of you and declaring you absolved but now suddenly you merit heaven where before you merited damnation?  That's a really petty system of ethics for God to have.

 

I think you misunderstand the sacrament of penance.  Forgiveness is conferred by God the moment we turn away from sin.  The sacrament is to help us turn away from sin.  It required by the Christian to participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist when a mortal sin is committed, but as a matter of dogma, forgiveness is conferred the moment the Christian repents.

Edited December 19, 2012 by theculturewarrior