The Poor

[4588686]

I feel like I need to point out that Ophelia had depression with psychotic features.  Hasan, I am sorry if I offended.  I do not know the proper way to broach the subject or if there even is one.  I always thought that you were one of the coolest phatmassers here, although I have known for a while now that my feelings a pathologically impossible to reciprocate.  dUSt owes me an apology, and if Richard Dawkins does make an appearance, I might get one.  If not, see you in five years.  (My heart will go on, Hasan).

 

Just relax, dude.  You didn't offend.

[BarbTherese]

You get it, we have the responsibility to provide for the poor as its God's will we do just that. The poor have no claim for any such assistance, we have moral obligation to provide that through our freewill. This does not mean that we have any right to demand money be taken from another to be given to the poor, or to assume the state must redistribute the money of another no matter how much they have. We are not God and we can not expect to remove the freewill of anyone no matter if they own more than they could ever use, its their money and possessions to do with as they please. If we follow the will of God we will share our time, talents and treasures willingly. A socialist believes in government redistribution of monies, our current President is a socialist.

 

ed

 

Hi again Ed - I agree.  I didn't mean from the start that some outside agency should organize the re-distrubution of wealth, rather that we do indeed have a responsibility and accountability for the gifts of God, including financial.  That financial status is gifted including that one gives to the poor.  It is not anyone else's decision, rather our own in free will - free will to choose to obey God, or not to obey.  We also have a duty to obey rightful authority including secular authority in all matters that are not sinful.  If it is sinful for a secular authority to legislate to assist the poor is another subject entirely.

 

I am speaking to a moral individual level not a social political level.  I am speaking on the point of our free will and that our choices may have a responsibility, accountability and therefore judgement under God -  as they do re God's Gifts and in this instance financial gifts.

 

I think where I may have led you astray is with the word "claim" - that the poor have a "claim" on the wealth of others. Perhaps if I had typed 'claim' I would have made my point clearer.  What I mean is "Do the poor have a right to expect that the rich provide assistance?"  And to my mind they do.  In the times of Jesus the poor just accepted their poverty and probably wondered what they had done that God should deny them the gift of comfortable survival which He had provided to to the 'wealthy' since wealth was viewed as a sign of God's favour and poverty as His disfavour. This is what Jesus turns upside down making it very clear that God's gift of financial 'status' was for sharing also with the poor and that this would have been a comfort to the poor.  Jesus indeed did bring Good News to the poor - very good news for them; however, our free will remains intact.  Jesus also laid down a tenet for the 'wealthy' and as from God and a tenet that has a responsibility and accountability - a judgement.  What was the good news for the poor is that they do not have to view their poverty as a sign of God's disfavour and that wealth is distrubuted as it is in order that the wealthy assist the poor.

 

One of the dictionary definitions of "claim" is : "to require as due or fitting".  The poor have a right to expect help from those who can and as "due and fitting" under God.  It is not the 'wealthy' providing that selfless charity*** as it were in the secular understanding, rather it is the 'wealthy' choosing to distribute God's Gift as He has ordained.  It is our duty and our responsibility and accountability and we will stand before The Judgement Seat of God on this point. 

 

________________________

 

*** Luke 17 "[9] Doth he thank that servant, for doing the things which he commanded him? [10] I think not. So you also, when you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do."

Edited December 18, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Where things can go amiss is, I think, that we take glory to ourselves. For example,  I tell myself that I studied hard all my life rather than waste my youth, I work hard and I earn good money and I have a right to the comforts of life that others do not have - or similar rationalizations.  Rather, truth and reality is, that God gave me The Grace not to waste my youth and to work hard, acquire a good job with good pay.  And one of the reasons that this is so is in order that the financial rewards of such a life be shared with the poor and as our God ordained duty as Catholic Christians.  This makes me anyway feel a little uncomfortable and unsure - pried out of my comfort zone.

 

It is not a secular government legislating that wealth should be re-distributed, it is Divine Authority - it is The Lord.  If I refuse to obey secular law, then I might land a fine or be put in jail.  With Divine Authority, we have our souls and our eternity on the line.  Is it that urgent and extreme?  Yes, I think that it is although I would have preferred to remain 'the ostrich'.   We in the west have problems with obesity, while two thirds of the world are starving.  This is clearly an injustice for which every person need stand before the Judgement Seat of The Lord and give an account of his or her particular moral responsibility in this matter.  I dont think that I really want to grasp and internalize this.  I give lip service to the reality both social and moral - but it is not really grasped and internalized.  I am reminded of what St Paul said "why is it that it is not the good I have a mind to do that I find myself doing?  And what can save me (from myself) - Nothing but The Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

"..............the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."

 

Therefore, it seems to follow to me that not only the poor have the right to expect assistance from the wealthy, but Jesus has the authority to demand it as it were and on behalf of the poor.  Do I still have free will?  Of course, I do - with my soul and my eternity on the line.

Edited December 18, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Anomaly]

Where things can go amiss is, I think, that we take glory to ourselves. For example,  I tell myself that I studied hard all my life rather than waste my youth, I work hard and I earn good money and I have a right to the comforts of life that others do not have - or similar rationalizations.  Rather, truth and reality is, that God gave me The Grace not to waste my youth and to work hard, acquire a good job with good pay.  And one of the reasons that this is so is in order that the financial rewards of such a life be shared with the poor and as our God ordained duty as Catholic Christians.  This makes me anyway feel a little uncomfortable and unsure - pried out of my comfort zone.

 

Are you saying the fact you chose to work hard and not give in to easy laziness is only by God's grace?

 

Are yoy saying that the poor are unfortunate in the fact they weren't graced by God with personality traits to be diligent and hardworking?  And since they weren't given the same personality, they now have a claim on what you have because only God gives or doesn't give material goods?

[BarbTherese]

Am I saying that God is present in His World.  Yes, I am.  Am I saying that absolutely everything in existence comes about through God's Direct or His Permissive Will, yes I am.

 

 

Are you saying the fact you chose to work hard and not give in to easy laziness is only by God's grace?

 

Yes.  "Without Me, you can do NOTHING".  God gave one The Grace and one in free will responded to that Grace.  But without The Grace in the first place, there would be no response.

 

Are yoy saying that the poor are unfortunate in the fact they weren't graced by God with personality traits to be diligent and hardworking? And since they weren't given the same personality, they now have a claim on what you have because only God gives or doesn't give material goods?

 

Basically, yes.

 

It is not my place to judge the poor - some may be as you put it above, others may not have responded to Graces gifted.  I can only assess my own position.  I dont think I am in a position to say to a poor person nor will ever be in that position to state  - "You are poor or have deserved your poverty because............ and therefore I have the right and it is just to refuse to share my material 'wealth' with you " ("Judge not that you may not be judged")

 

Material goods do come about through God's gratuitious gifts and we are required to be mindful of the poor in the dispersing of all material goods with our souls and our eternity on the line.

 

If a person labours under material poverty through their own fault and failure to respond to Graces given, then that person(s) will stand before the Judgement Seat of God on another matter to mine.

Edited December 18, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I have to go and may not be back for a while.  It is always difficult for me to know.

 

The Catholic Christian mentality/Catholic culture will always ideally (of necessity probably) be counter cultural.  It will challenge - and very often the status quo.  It is through living the Faith and it's challenges and difficulties that we witness to the Faith.

Edited December 18, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Not to encourage scandal, but it's easy to romanticize what the early Church was like. Perhaps like God, we mercifully recall the good deeds (poolings goods to give to those in need) while easily forgetting that neglect of widows, the poor, and others in need was a big enough problem for St. Paul to confront it head on in his letters. Certainly we could all do a lot more, yet as you recognize these sacrifices are difficult (imagine that... a difficult sacrifice). It's one of those things where we need to pray that we become the change we hope to see in the Church and the world. Pray for one step at a time. "He who is faithful with small amounts will be faithful with large amounts."

 

 

Precisely!  

Some needed sacrifices are not all that difficult, some truly are.  The problems around sharing with the poor our gifts from God (all the poor on all levels) is not without problems for sure and for each one of us and as individuals (well, me anyway), without any sort of collective responsibility on any level being considered.

I must state too that I am probably in a quite different position with different accountabilities and responsibilities since I am under private vows to the evangelical counsels, with spiritual direction. 

 

St Therese said that when she went to Heaven her hands would be empty.  Being no St Therese nor even remotely close nor in her shadow, I like to reflect that mine will be full.  Full of The Love and Mercy The Lord has given me in my lifetime, and that I will thank and praise Him for His Abundant Loving Mercy to His least.  I feel that His Mercy is so stunning and amazing defying all human logic, as was His Incarnation. that the full length, depth and breadth of it when in Heaven will truly stun and amaze, astound, bring us to our knees in praise and thanksgiving.  But will it be gifted if one presumes in life on that Mercy?

 

Without Revelation no jolly way could man anticipate God becoming man (it is too crazy a notion according to human logic and a complete contradiction in terms) – in fact, it is not until after The Incarnation that the fact is revealed that had been in the Mind and Heart of God from all eternity.   I feel that in our human mentality we cannot even remotely imagine the extent of His Love and Mercy and that it defies all imagination even anticipation – and that His Mercy flees from presumption. Thus my concepts of God’s Loving Mercy cannot at all excuse me from my very real existential ‘hot seat’ of what Jesus has stated and His call to us with all the necessary Grace to live what by He said and not just give lip service.  I can only Hope for the full length, depth and breadth of His Mercy (and I will desperately need it), not anticipate it with presumption.

 

Jesus did not become Incarnate and say the things He did as some sort of abstract philosophy for admiration but not really attainable â€“ it was much more than that for those who claim to follow Him and are granted The Grace to do so.  I can either respond to or decline that Grace.

 

“To whom more is given, then more will be expected”  And the fact of the gift of The Catholic Faith is a stunning gift and so very much is given with that Catholic Faith, in fact Jesus continues to give Himself and fully – hence very much is going to be expected.  It is an honour to be baptized Catholic – a sign of God’s Graced choice.  With His Choice and His Call comes His Grace.  It is also, therefore, a great responsibility and accountability.  The Sacraments are enough to set one on one's knees if one thinks about them.  How much is going to be expected of me at Judgement, I have absolutely no idea, not in the slightest!  â€œWork out your own salvation with fear and trembling”.  I know I will truly tremble with fear before The Glory and Judgement Seat of The Lord.  It is not a terrified fear, rather it is the trembling of weak, stumbling, fallen human nature before The Divine Goodness and Omnipotent Lord of Heaven and Earth when all will be made clear, when what is now in darkness (including to that of understanding) will be in the light of day.  And Our Divine Lord will not judge by appearances, but see with precise knowledge into the very depths of our heart.  Lord take our hearts of stone and grant us hearts of flesh.

Edited December 19, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Gabriela]

You get it, we have the responsibility to provide for the poor as its God's will we do just that. The poor have no claim for any such assistance, we have moral obligation to provide that through our freewill. This does not mean that we have any right to demand money be taken from another to be given to the poor, or to assume the state must redistribute the money of another no matter how much they have. We are not God and we can not expect to remove the freewill of anyone no matter if they own more than they could ever use, its their money and possessions to do with as they please. If we follow the will of God we will share our time, talents and treasures willingly. A socialist believes in government redistribution of monies, our current President is a socialist.

 

ed

 

And again: This is why I'm a Libertarian. ;-)

[BarbTherese]

I think in our day we are sidetracked.  We are so busy about doctrine and dogma and other religion related intellectual and associated matters - and content once we feel we have arrived at a place that satisfies the intellect etc and that there we can rest, that we have done it all.  We can forget the basics about being a follower of Jesus - the challenges before and ahead on all levels and the associated difficulties - that is, a Catholic Christian in this instance.  What it is REALLY all about...........or it could be just me.  It crosses my mind that Satan has thrown up a smoke screen.

I rather regularly feel sorry for Rome who must speak convincingly to people of high intellect, and at the same time to the more simple minded of whom I am one.

[BarbTherese]

Considering moral an law on a completely different level for a moment.  Society and the moral law says that to steal the goods of another is an offence with penalty attached if broken.  Therefore I have a moral and social obligation to respect the goods of others and these others have a right to anticipate that their belongings will be respected by me.   If I do not keep this moral and social obligation, there is a penalty attached.

Jesus has told us that we have an obligation towards the poor, therefore, the poor have a right to anticipate that that obligation will be met.  Jesus has clarified the position of the poor under God and our position towards the poor under God.

 

The fact of free will and ararchy may or may not be in partnership.  Free will remains intact if diametrically opposed to anarchy.   As social beings living in communities, we needs secular laws to preserve the harmony of all and the rights of individuals.  In Moral Law, it is the rights of God to dictate as God that we have a need to respect and preserve since all that is including our own being comes to us from God.  Laws cannot be in partnership with ararchy.  Moral Law is of higher order than secular law and secular law has the duty and obligation to obey the Moral Law.  Duties and obligations, laws, do not cancel out free will.  We remain free, completely free, to choose or to disobey and we retain this freedom.  Consequences of disobedience of Moral and secular law are spelt out for us - and as long as we are social beings striving to live together in harmony, we will need secular law.  As long as we creatures under God, which we all are, we need the Moral Law which, in preserving the rights of God as Creator, at once respects the rights of all individuals as well.

Edited December 19, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Anomaly]

I'm glad you clarified your thoughts with your post above.  At first, when I questioned you, it seemed that you were disavowing personal  responsibility on the part of the poor.  According to Christian thought, God got mad at Adam and Eve and threw them out of Eden, requiring all mankind to work for their bread.  Most philosophies and religions recognize that humans have a personal responsibility to do what they can for themselves, and possibly for others who cannot.  The danger is in telling capable people they can't, telling capable people it isn't their fault.  In effect, you may be teaching people they are made broken and are inferior.  It's hard to imagine a more devastating and demoralizing psychological attack.

 

There is a big difference in acknowledging that some tasks are harder for some people.  We aren't all made with the intellect or artistic skills to become a painter or scientist.  Sometimes you have to take the job at McDonalds even though you spent the time and energy to have a PHD.  Sometimes you have to take the job at McDonalds because you goofed off for years and left school in your junior year at the age of 18.  Much (not all) of the circumstances you find yourself are your own making.  It's too convenient an excuse to blame society or lack of God's graces as a reason to not put in the effort because it's harder for you than it is for others.

[4588686]

And again: This is why I'm a Libertarian. ;-)

 

You misspelled 'economic-predator.'

[theculturewarrior]

I am not poor.  I have a refrigerator and a friend with AC.  That is enough.

[BarbTherese]

I'm glad you clarified your thoughts with your post above.  At first, when I questioned you, it seemed that you were disavowing personal  responsibility on the part of the poor.  According to Christian thought, God got mad at Adam and Eve and threw them out of Eden, requiring all mankind to work for their bread.  Most philosophies and religions recognize that humans have a personal responsibility to do what they can for themselves, and possibly for others who cannot.  The danger is in telling capable people they can't, telling capable people it isn't their fault.  In effect, you may be teaching people they are made broken and are inferior.  It's hard to imagine a more devastating and demoralizing psychological attack.

 

There is a big difference in acknowledging that some tasks are harder for some people.  We aren't all made with the intellect or artistic skills to become a painter or scientist.  Sometimes you have to take the job at McDonalds even though you spent the time and energy to have a PHD.  Sometimes you have to take the job at McDonalds because you goofed off for years and left school in your junior year at the age of 18.  Much (not all) of the circumstances you find yourself are your own making.  It's too convenient an excuse to blame society or lack of God's graces as a reason to not put in the effort because it's harder for you than it is for others.

 

I did think that I had mentioned "all kinds of poverty" - and dollars are not the only way to address the various reasons for poverty and sometimes dollars are not the best way.

It is not mine to judge others.  My responsibility and accountability is to ensure that the gifts God has given me are used justly and as He intends insofar as I am able and to ensure that I am not rationalizing in order to avoid stewardship or to justify a comfortable for me status quo.   This accountability and responsibility of course (goes without saying) does include that I am discerning about where and why I use my gifts.  All this asks God's Grace, The Holy Spirit. 

 

We are all broken for sure and inferior somewhere or other.  Insofar as personal psychological attack is concerned, it will rest on how one presents one's concepts and there is an obligation in this to ensure that one is presenting them as Jesus intends and this is also primarily with care and concern for the other in presenting Truth and The Gospel.  Suffering/The Cross is probably most always going to present problems (stumbling block)- this will not remove suffering nor the teaching of The Cross as Victory and an honor.   This Mystery is at the heart and soul of our Catholic Faith.

 

When living myself amongst the very poor and in the same boat myself, I never had problems with presenting Catholic teaching on suffering, The Will of God as mystery.  No psychological harm done, rather people often wanted to hear more and what I had to say was a light to them and a lightening of burden.  They understood that suffering in the world does exist and that very often it can visit the completely innocent and that this is mystery, not a sign of God's Disfavour in any way.  Rather, reflect on what happens to His Son and this terrible human event brought about our salvation and The Father's Glory and that quite human suffering has the very real potential to do the same.  This is mystery and we simply cannot fully understand.  Psychological perhaps and spiritual damage would come about by reinforcing or allowing others to believe that any kind of human suffering is somehow a result of being in disfavour with The Lord.  Rather, mysteriously to us and our limited faulted human 'logic' suffering/The Cross is a blessing from God.  This is a great mystery that cannot change the fact.  The whole of one's life - all of it - is fashioned by - hopefully Graced - perspectives and attitudes and these can be either faulted or Graced and spot on.  Perspectives and attitudes have potential to either increase personal suffering or lessen it.

 

It is our secular atittude clinging that mars the beauty and wonder of The Faith.  And the teachings of our Faith convey a perspective and attitude towards all that happens.

 

Has Jesus told us that wealth is for stewardship and that the poor have not offended God. Yes.  Also, all absolutely that happens does indeed come about through God's Direct or His Permissive Will and this is spelt out also in the Catholic Catechism and personally I do choose to use Jesus and His Gospel as my point of reference.  The CCC and what we believe is drawn from The Gospel.

 

 

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.¹⁷⁶ He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

 

•  
• For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

   

 

 

 

 

 

313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."¹⁸⁰ The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:

 

• St. Catherine of Siena said to "those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them": "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."¹⁸¹

  St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."¹⁸²

  Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that 'all manner [of] thing shall be well.'"¹⁸

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Ed Normile]

And again: This is why I'm a Libertarian. ;-)

 

My post made you a libertarian ! Thats great I am one too, I am glad I swayed you onto the right path.

 

ed