Why I Am No Longer An Atheist

[Papist]

It is possible for an individual to make moral decisions in the absence of religion.  This is Church doctrine.

 

Yes, of course. I am trying to learn how one determines what is or is not moral if God does not exist. More so, why then does this person choose good, and avoid evil, if God does not exist. I am not trying to argue/convince anyone God exist. I have always been fascinated with people that are good, moral persons and believe that there is no God. 

[BigJon16]

What about claiming “I don’t know how that art was created”
Does that take faith?
Most atheists fit in the IDK basket.

 

 

Ok. I get your point. 

 

 

But how does that deny the existence of the artist? 

[theculturewarrior]

Yes, of course. I am trying to learn how one determines what is or is not moral if God does not exist. More so, why then does this person choose good, and avoid evil, if God does not exist. I am not trying to argue/convince anyone God exist. I have always been fascinated with people that are good, moral persons and believe that there is no God. 

 

The Church teaches that God's law is written on our hearts, so that even where the Gospel has not been preached, people have can have an intuitive sense of right and wrong.  Buddhists believe that there is no God but they have created a system of morality that is largely based on ethics and the pursuit of happiness.  A lot of atheists might tell you that people are basically good for most part with a few bad apples.

[Papist]

The Church teaches that God's law is written on our hearts, so that even where the Gospel has not been preached, people have can have an intuitive sense of right and wrong.  Buddhists believe that there is no God but they have created a system of morality that is largely based on ethics and the pursuit of happiness.  A lot of atheists might tell you that people are basically good for most part with a few bad apples.

 

Why?

[Anomaly]

Yes, of course. I am trying to learn how one determines what is or is not moral if God does not exist. More so, why then does this person choose good, and avoid evil, if God does not exist. I am not trying to argue/convince anyone God exist. I have always been fascinated with people that are good, moral persons and believe that there is no God. 

 

Very simple answer.  Because most people just want to.

 

There are a number of ways of establishing and evaluating the good of decisions that don't require knowledge or concept of God.  Humans have a more sophisticated intellect and awareness than animals.  Some of the commonly identified value systems for morals or ethics are: Human Rights derived from identifying human nature as being more sophisticated than animals; Utilitarinist, based on the effect of the choice; Virtue, based on observed good principles of human behavior; Justice, based in the inherent sense of being just; and Common Good of human society.  Much of these evaluations can be done objectively, but most are really subjective evaluations, especially in application to specific issues.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Anomaly

[theculturewarrior]

Why?

 

The goal of Buddhism is to answer the problem of suffering.  They believe that desire is the cause of suffering.  Like the concept of sin in Christianity.  They seek be free from desire the way we do from sin.  Part of the answer to suffering is logically not causing suffering.

[theculturewarrior]

This is a prayer from the Tibetan Book of the Dead:

 

 

May all sentient beings be endowed with happiness.

May they all be free from suffering and its causes.

May they be endowed with joy, free from suffering.

May they abide in equanimity free from attachment or aversion.

[Papist]

Very simple answer.  Because most people just want to.

 

There are a number of ways of establishing and evaluating the good of decisions that don't require knowledge or concept of God.  Humans have a more sophisticated intellect and awareness than animals.  Some of the commonly identified value systems for morals or ethics are: Human Rights derived from identifying human nature as being more sophisticated than animals; Utilitarinist, based on the effect of the choice; Virtue, based on observed good principles of human behavior; Justice, based in the inherent sense of being just; and Common Good of human society.  Much of these evaluations can be done objectively, but most are really subjective evaluations, especially in application to specific issues.

 

Most people are good b/c simply they just want to. You should meet my sons.  At what point will it come to them to just want to do good b/c they just want to?  I have always been intrigued, if one believes there is no God, then who is the authority that determines what is good. Also, if I one walking down the street and saw some stranger drowning, what drives him to risk his life to save this stranger. I have always wondered this.

 

The goal of Buddhism is to answer the problem of suffering.  They believe that desire is the cause of suffering.  Like the concept of sin in Christianity.  They seek be free from desire the way we do from sin.  Part of the answer to suffering is logically not causing suffering.

 

Like one can be happier by lowering his expectations....desiring less.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Papist

[Anomaly]

Most people are good b/c simply they just want to. You should meet my sons.  At what point will it come to them to just want to do good b/c they just want to?  I have always been intrigued, if one believes there is no God, then who is the authority that determines what is good. Also, if I one walking down the street and saw some stranger drowning, what drives him to risk his life to save this stranger. I have always wondered this.

 

Animals often display this altruistic trait as part of their natural instinct.  Stories of dolphins helping lost sailors.  Recently there was a story of a cheetah who killed and ate a mother monkey, but adopted and is caring for the orphaned baby monkey.  If you watch What Would You Do w/ John Quiones, they do psuedo sociological experiments and people tend to do the right thing.  Some of it's natural human behavior/instict, some of it's learned behavior. 

 

There are many motivations for human actions, some are internal, some are external.  Do you only do the 'right thing' because you are being obedient?  Is the obedience based on fear of punishment, or a desire to please?  Do you fear punishment from a Divinity, or society?  Is your desire to please others (human or Divine) or just your self?  Do you find you are pleased by a sense of personal satisfaction or pleased with yourself because others display approval for your choice?

[Papist]

Animals often display this altruistic trait as part of their natural instinct.  Stories of dolphins helping lost sailors.  Recently there was a story of a cheetah who killed and ate a mother monkey, but adopted and is caring for the orphaned baby monkey.  If you watch What Would You Do w/ John Quiones, they do psuedo sociological experiments and people tend to do the right thing.  Some of it's natural human behavior/instict, some of it's learned behavior. 

 

There are many motivations for human actions, some are internal, some are external.  Do you only do the 'right thing' because you are being obedient?  Is the obedience based on fear of punishment, or a desire to please?  Do you fear punishment from a Divinity, or society?  Is your desire to please others (human or Divine) or just your self?  Do you find you are pleased by a sense of personal satisfaction or pleased with yourself because others display approval for your choice?

 

Something just does not seem right. From what I am understanding from what you are saying it that all is random and/or a coincidence that people do/act good. People that do good are just lucky that some how they know what good is.

[stevil]

Something just does not seem right. From what I am understanding from what you are saying it that all is random and/or a coincidence that people do/act good. People that do good are just lucky that some how they know what good is.

 

Yes, that's right.

I don't know how an atheist can define Good, other than some arbitrary definition made up as a way to explain why they behave or feel the way they do.

 

Obviously Good and Bad/Evil is ingrained into our culture and language. Used as tools to manipulate the way people behave.

From an early age parent's start it off. "Be a Good boy and eat your dinner", "Are you a Good boy or a Bad boy?, Good boys tidy their room, Bad boys sit in naughty corner"

 

We also get conditioned by our tv shows and movies. Especially the mind numbing unintelligent ones where you have the Good guy who does only Good things and the Bad guy who only does Bad things. The audience cheer on the Good guy and want him to win and want the Bad guy to lose by the end of the show.

 

But on the other hand many religious people behave very oppressive or dangerously towards some members of society under the guise of thier scripture defined "Good".

 

The fact is that atheists are less likely to break the law and end up in prison.

[Kia ora]

isn't fidism a heresy?

 

I don't think Kierkegaard was a fideist, even though he gets accused of that a lot.

[stevil]

So you do not think that people generally base their reasoning on objective facts? But rather that they start with their particular set of biases first, and integrate objective facts later?

OK, here is a somewhat silly game, if you are keen.

Facts
1. There is a paper bag
2. The paper bag is brown
3. The paper bag is bigger than a human
4. You are a human
5. You are in the paper bag
6. it is possible for you to get out of the paper bag


Objective
Reason your way out of the paper bag without using any seeds (subjective goals)

[Nihil Obstat]

OK, here is a somewhat silly game, if you are keen.

Facts
1. There is a paper bag
2. The paper bag is brown
3. The paper bag is bigger than a human
4. You are a human
5. You are in the paper bag
6. it is possible for you to get out of the paper bag


Objective
Reason your way out of the paper bag without using any seeds (subjective goals)

 

I am sorry, but your objective makes no sense. :blink:

[theculturewarrior]

Like one can be happier by lowering his expectations....desiring less.

 

No, not really.  It's more like in Christianity where you have the concept of attachment to sin.  What we see as sinful they might see as unhealthy, causing unhappiness and creating repetitive behaviors.  So Christians identify the act as the root cause, and Buddhists identify the desire behind the act as the root cause of unhappiness.  Something like that anyway.  I am not a Buddhist or a theologian.