What Constitutes Fair And Non-discriminatory Pay?

[4588686]

I guess I am an individualist. It was encouraged growing up, at 16 I was paying for everything myself at my dad's, minus the rent and utilities. I have a very small family so I guess I never really was exposed to collectivism.

It's a cruel harsh world out there. Our society would never implement such a policy nowadays. It may not be fair in your eyes if the dad of 4 doesn't make more or even with his circumstances a HS grad getting paid less than the college grad. But that's how it goes.

I'm glad I live where I live. I would not enjoy living in a collectivist society.

 

Oh.  So it's a good idea because that's how it's done at this moment in time.  

[zabbazooey]

I'm a barista at a coffeehouse and a college student. I've worked since I was 14 and have held all kinds of jobs. Warehouse, teaching, retail, food service, finance, call center, whatever.

I guess I just grew up that way. Actually getting a wage because you earn it. Not because you also happen to have 4 kids.

[zabbazooey]

Edit. Phorum slow and Hasan replied.

Edited December 3, 2012 by zabbazooey

[4588686]

I'm a barista at a coffeehouse and a college student. I've worked since I was 14 and have held all kinds of jobs. Warehouse, teaching, retail, food service, finance, call center, whatever.

I guess I just grew up that way. Actually getting a wage because you earn it. Not because you also happen to have 4 kids.
 

 

 

Then I think that supports my claim.  Those aren't the sort of jobs that only a very few select people can do.  They're like my job.  Anybody can do them.  I agree with you that such discrimination is unjust in the zero-sum capitalist system.  You're being forced to compete for resources in order to survive.  That's the fundamental injustice in a modern society capable of producing more than what any single human being needs.  

[4588686]

Well agree to disagree. There really isn't anything else to talk about. I will never agree to a pay differential for people with kids or whatever other circumstances. I will always feel that people who have a degree should get paid more.

Corporations would never do this so it's really a moot point. Also pretty sure this would never make it to get Barack's signature via govt.

 

So we should never consider an economic system that corporations wouldn't approve of? 

[WillT]

I'm a barista at a coffeehouse and a college student. I've worked since I was 14 and have held all kinds of jobs. Warehouse, teaching, retail, food service, finance, call center, whatever.

I guess I just grew up that way. Actually getting a wage because you earn it. Not because you also happen to have 4 kids.

But that's my point. Just because somebody gave a couple grand a year to an institution in exchange for a piece of paper with their name on it doesn't mean that they've "earned" anything. Other than that piece of paper, anyway. Even if you did well and made the best of your opportunities, unless your education directly applies to your work, it no more "earns" you the right to a higher wage than "popping out" a few kids does. Both are irrelevant to the workplace.

[zabbazooey]

I will say that I just had this conversation with my best friend who pointed out that how do I feel about my dad getting a pay differential since he is still supporting my 19 year old sister and indirectly me since I am on his work insurance plan.

I never really thought about it, but I'd absolutely give him a higher wage than myself. He is doing the single dad thing by himself.

So, in retrospect, I guess being single without kids and living on my own I kind of forgot what that is like. I changed my mind. I guess someone just needed to point out how this applies to me and my family.

[zabbazooey]

Forgot to add...in a perfect world I still think that any degree should automatically qualify for a pay raise. Whatever degree from an accredited institution.

[homeschoolmom]

I think getting a tax deduction for dependants is intended to even things out somewhat, though it's not nearly enough to actually make any difference. Currently, we get a tax credit of about $1000 per kid. Whoopie. And, that's going away at the end of the year unless something happens.

[Papist]

But how do we decide who is in need of a better salary? What if the single person is supporting an elderly parent, but it doesn't happen to be known by the employer? As much as I would like to benefit from my dh making more simply because he's the dad among single co-workers, that doesn't seem right to me.

 

eta: and then what happens when the dad's kids move out? You make him take a pay cut?

 

Or, I get a pay raise with each birth of my children. The permutations are endless.  

[Anomaly]

I absolutely disagree with a man raising kids being paid more just because he has kids.  Pay should definitely be paid accordingly to the effort and value to the company as an organization.  How do you figure if the single person isn't saving up to get married or caring for a handicapped family member, etc. etc.  It's not up to the company to be the social engineer.  Does a married father automatically get endowed with better productivity, contribute more to the company?

 

I raised my family on mostly 1 income when almost none of my peers did so, so claims of it was a different time alltogether is BS.  At no time did I think I should be paid more or less than someone else with a different family arrangement.  When you work for an employer, you are part of a team and you have to work collectively for the betterment of the team so we all have jobs, we all have benefits, we all will get a paycheck next week, next year, etc.  Pay is based on your ability to contribute to the company.

 

It's another matter if a emplyee with a family or 'circumstances' asked for additional hours, some time off, an opportunity for advancement, and you consider their circumstances ALONG WITH their contributions to the business organization.  I've worked for employers who take advantage of employees, i've worked for employers who have taken advantage of my work ethic, I've worked cra.ppy jobs to feed my family.  It's a matter of being responsible for your self and your choices, your obligations to your family, your employer, your role in society.  I don't begrudge some single person with more disposable income, making the same money I do, because I have a wife and kids and family that I go home to.  I expect him to be paid fairly for his efforts, as I expect to be paid fairly for my efforts, and I expect the employer to pay fairly for the efforts of their employees, regardless of their family situation.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Anomaly

[Papist]

I used to be a devout Catholic, so yes, I understand the sacrament of matrimony and raising children. 

 

I work my rear end off, am going to school, et cetera. I don't care if you're doing God's will by having a large family or what your personal circumstances are. If you are going to get paid more than me, and we are doing equal work, you had better have a degree or more work experience. (I know in business today, unethical stuff happens like pay raises for dating bosses, this is just 'in a perfect world')

 

If I have more disposable income than the dad of 4, that's because I have chosen not to get married and be blessed with children just yet. That's not MY fault. 

 

Equal work, equal pay. PERIOD.

 

Whether you're male, female, black, Asian, white, Hispanic, married or not, children or not. 

 

 

I think people with degrees should be given the advantage, even if it's retail! They went through the extra trouble to get the degree vs. someone with just a HS diploma. That's something you earn and takes years. If someone is motivated enough to go beyond high school to pursue and obtain a degree, they should be given higher pay (this doesn't always happen, though).

 

Which is it?

[zabbazooey]

Ok so equal work equal pay. But if someone has more work experience or a degree they should get paid more. If not we are creating a system close to communism which discourages those sorts of things and pays everyone the exact same. Why go to school if you'll get paid the same as a HS grad?

[Basilisa Marie]

There's no way an employer should pay someone a higher rate simply because he or she has a family, and not because he or she works hard.  Like others have said, there's no way for an employer to know everyone's situation.  Arbitrarily deciding who needs more money based on factors other than job performance opens the door to all kinds of unfair employment practices. 

 

 If an employer needs someone to cover an extra shift, I don't see a problem in first offering it to the employees who have expressed interest in picking up extra time...for whatever reason.  My brother works at a shipping company, and when his boss asked for volunteers to be "on call" instead of scheduled one day a week, my brother took him up on the offer because he's a 19 year old kid and knows that some of his coworkers have families to support, and need all the help they can get.   

 

Employers have to compensate their workers fairly, but employees have to be advocates for themselves and work hard to earn the salary they need. 

[Anomaly]

Forgot to add...in a perfect world I still think that any degree should automatically qualify for a pay raise. Whatever degree from an accredited institution.

 

Absolutely not.  How does a person's desire to get a degree in Ancient Greek Mythology have anything to do with making Twinkies or working in the Accounts Payable department?  Nothing!  They should get more money because they had family that could help support them while they pursued an expensive hobby?  A degree like that contributes to their employablity as much as a hobby in Radio Controlled airplanes.

 

It's different if an employer may consider a person who earned a degree has a potential for a good work ethic, self motivation, able to apply their efforts, has a certain amount of intelligence.  But the proof is in the pudding.  Do they use those skills and abilities to perform their job well, work as a team member, contribute to win-win results, etc.?  A degree holder should be paid more than someone who didn't have the opportunity, the financial means, the time to devote to schooling, but has a work ethic and is actually doing all they can as an employee to contribute to the success of the company?