Doubt

[Lilllabettt]

the carbon dating shows its from the middle ages. However , there is a good chance the sample they tested was corrupted, because of a fire the shroud was exposed to in the middle ages.

 

If ones faith rests on things like the Shroud, Lourdes, Fatima, St Januarius' liquifying blood, or any other visions, signs, private revelations, wonders etc ... then that faith is flimsy indeed.

[Gabriela]

I personally don't think that proving the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin by carbon-dating is going to solve this guy's problems. So...

 

To the OP: I was standing over my bookshelf yesterday and I noticed some books by Plantinga and Wolterstorff, both Christian analytic philosophers working in the philosophy of religion. As I said in a previous post in this thread, I don't think analyzing your way to faith is gonna work. But if you insist upon continuing to try, I think they're good sources to read. They both have mountains of books and articles to pore over. They specifically deal with the epistemological problems presented by faith. I'll warn you: They're not easy reads.

 

If you're up for the "asking God" approach, though, then here's a little something I received by email today (purely "coincidentally", I suppose... ;-) that supports that approach:

 

"Discernment must take place in a climate of faith. It is the perception of God's action and his call. I believe discernment is, in itself, a grace. It is definitely more than a fruit of mere intellectual examination and reflection.

Discernment is, therefore, more subject to the pattern of grace than to the laws of pure reason. For example, God can in one moment enlighten a soul and let him see his call, much like a person can receive the grace of faith from one moment to the next with no apparent natural explanation. People can study the Catholic faith for years, argue with the best of theologians, and still not believe; then in a visit to a church, God can do in a moment what that man had been fruitlessly seeking for years. Discernment is not always a laborious process grinding to inevitable results. Sometimes it is a flash of recognition, which we test, but we know it is true.
 

It is extremely important to remember that while discernment is an act of the mind it is principally a fruit of grace."

 

From the book "Peter on the Shore", part 2, chapter 10. See here: http://www.vocation.com/DiscernmentLibraryItem.aspx?id=268&terms=chapter+10

[WillT]

Plantinga is an interesting read. "Warranted Christian Belief" is the book of his I've read. It seems like Alston had an interesting book as well, but I can't think of it off the top of my head. I'll look over my bookshelf when I get a chance.

At any rate, nothing you ever read will give you 100% certainty. That goes doubly for philosophy. ;)

[Gabriela]

That goes doubly for philosophy. ;)

 

OMG: AMEN!

 

In fact, if you want the world's most convincing evidence that reason and argument will NOT result in certainty, just read any debate in analytic philosophy. You can make an argument for anything, and oh my, do they! (It gets 'em published...)

[WillT]

OMG: AMEN!

In fact, if you want the world's most convincing evidence that reason and argument will NOT result in certainty, just read any debate in analytic philosophy. You can make an argument for anything, and oh my, do they! (It gets 'em published...)

Yep. Also, metaphilosophy.

[theculturewarrior]

The article you linked to does not cite primary sources. The source it cites does not cite primary sources. One of the sources that the cited article cited finally linked to the actual study, which is in Italian.

Frankly, I want to see what the original research actually said. Anyone here speak fluent enough Italian to translate a scientific study?

 

I do, but frankly I find this pendantic and painfully off topic. Not directed specifically at you, Nihil Obstat.

Edited December 4, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[Nihil Obstat]

I do, but frankly I find this pendantic and painfully off topic. Not directed specifically at you, Nihil Obstat.

 

No, I agree. It is a red herring.

 

It is simply that at this point I think we have said about all we are going to say on the subject of belief versus doubt. :P

[Kevin]

I would really like to read Plantinga, but somehow, I feel like he isn't really taken seriously by other analytic philosophers because he only writes about religion.

 

I am maybe having a relapse at the moment. I am in a really dark place. Please pray for me.

[theculturewarrior]

I pray for you everyday, Kevin.  Try looking at the big picture.  You are under an incredible amount of stress from your studies.  You are a far away from home and you are feeling isolated.  This is enough to cause mental health symptoms in anybody.  Look at your stressors, find a safe place to talk about them.  Therapy is gold.  And look for the company of people your age who understand these things.  Catholic Young Adult groups can be good.  I prefer the company of the mentally ill, but I am special.  NAMI is a good group at times and there are many others, such as the Bipolar and Depression Support Alliance.

 

Some universities offer talk therapy at no cost to students, from clinical psychologists even.

Edited December 4, 2012 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

Something else to think about, from one humanities guy to another, is that in literature circles, despair is often celebrated as a heroic virtue.  I find this cliche and prefer to read the works of people of color or just not read English at all for that reason.  I could make a compelling argument for why Madea's Family Reunion is more sophisticated than the Death of a Salesman.  You are probably reading some depressing stuff everyday and it might not be helping.

[WillT]

I would really like to read Plantinga, but somehow, I feel like he isn't really taken seriously by other analytic philosophers because he only writes about religion.

I am maybe having a relapse at the moment. I am in a really dark place. Please pray for me.

Nearly all analytic philosophers write exclusively or heavily in only one area. I don't think Plantinga's system is something I would embrace in its entirety, but he has some interesting ideas about justification (in the epistemological sense, not the theological).

[Kevin]

Something else to think about, from one humanities guy to another, is that in literature circles, despair is often celebrated as a heroic virtue.  I find this cliche and prefer to read the works of people of color or just not read English at all for that reason.  I could make a compelling argument for why Madea's Family Reunion is more sophisticated than the Death of a Salesman.  You are probably reading some depressing stuff everyday and it might not be helping.

 

The fact is that I don't spend that much time in those circles - I spend much more time per week on my freshman Comp. class. I think I just need to get out of this funk.

[theculturewarrior]

You are a teaching assistant too?  Wow, you are playing against a stacked deck.  I hope and pray that you find relief.

[Kevin]

You are a teaching assistant too?  Wow, you are playing against a stacked deck.  I hope and pray that you find relief.

 

This is not a big problem for me - if anything, teaching helps stabilize me. An MFA is different than a straight up MA in English - I am not so much engaged in theoretical discussions.

 

I guess I just feel like the weight of a million arguments and a million counterarguments are weighing down on me. Like, I could read Plantinga, but it for every argument he made there must be at least fifty counterarguments and fifty counters to those counterarguments, and I just don't know where can it or will it end?

 

In a way, what Freedom was saying may be true - maybe I will never be convinced. It just feels so unfair. That we have to live with such all-encompassing uncertainty. I know it really isn't unfair, but it just feels that way.

[theculturewarrior]

I hope this does not come across as dismissive, but this just sounds like anxiety to me.  It also sounds like you are in the wrong program as you are very gifted and could do quite a bit of good for humanity with your doubts.