Doubt

[Kevin]

I have experienced a great deal of doubt of and on for about 15 years, since I was in ninth grade or so, about God's existence. Sometimes it is a very powerful doubt, and the first thought I have in the morning is "You don't really know if God exists and if you look at all the evidence, it seems pretty unlikely" and I continue fighting these thoughts all day like in the back of my mind. Once this continued, every single day, for six months. Furthermore, when I did manage to banish these thoughts, I wasn't much better. I rarely thought of God's love or grace, really I might have tried not to think of Him at all, lest the doubting start up again. I am ashamed to say that the most doubt-free time of my life was the year and a half I avoided Mass, which only recently stopped.

I feel like I can't even begin to express all of my doubts, and that is part of what overwhelms me. I don't even know where it ends or begins, so it just feels like an overwhelming sense that bears down on me. Part of it is evolution, or rather, the fossil record, which is really the hard thing to get away from. Part of it is not knowing how to fit the idea of the Garden of Eden into natural history, and it is essential to do so for Christianity to have any meaning. Then there is the thought that, why, if evolution was part of God's plan, does the Bible give no indication of it? I have reasoned that the Lord did not want there to be such undeniable proof of the truth of the Bible, lest people believe in it for the wrong reasons, but somehow this isn't entirely satisfying. In a way, it feels like the Lord is playing some kind of cruel joke on us, or at least people like me who can't seem to get over it.

I have read Aquinas's proofs of course, and they do seem convincing in the idea that you need a noncontingent absolutely existing Something at the beginning to serve as the unmoved mover, since an infinite regress is much less preferable. But I can't help but think, what if the mindless laws of nature or the universe itself fills that role? I know that there is a huge amount we don't know about how the universe unfolded, but I when Atheist scientists insist this is just hiding in the gaps of our knowledge, I feels there is some validity to that. Or at least, it simply highlights our ignorance about the universe where we came from, and to me it feels unbearable that God left things so vague.

Then there is the matter of other religions. I have always believed that, if God exists, Christianity makes the most sense. And I get the idea that God did not extend revelation to all humanity because of the Fall, and started it with Abraham and the covenant, but somehow this seems too convenient. In a way, all religions say this same thing, that they are correct and the others are not. And there is no way around it - in order for Christianity to be true, all other religions have to have been invented by the imagination in the same way Atheists say all religions were invented. I know that the idea of the divine may be a rememberance of Eden, but how did it get so skewed into the Hindu or Greek or Aztec pantheon? Why did all humanity save the Jews forget where they had come from?

Finally there is the afterlife. In a way, heaven is as frightening to me as hell, because it will last forever. Or rather, can it really be that we will retain our identities for trillions and trillions of years, and that even after that, it will be like no time has passed? The only alternative seems to be that time in the afterlife will be so different from our current experience that we cannot even fathom it. And so all those images of heaven, even those from Dante, which I love the best (I am an MFA in poetry currently, though I was once a secondary English and Latin teacher), seem to be inaccurate. Or at least, the idea of heaven we have, as taking place in time, will only be part of it, or for a certain amount of time. And that really scares me. I am of course terrified by the idea of simply not existing, but the idea of having my conscious experience of time transformed in a way I can't even imagine seems just as frightening.

I just want to say, these are not really arguments I'm asking anyone to refute. I'm just ratling them off in the hope it will be thereputic to confess to someone (in the past I have talked to a priest, but the priest at my current parish, while not a bad guy, is, from my last attempt to touch on these issues, not too deep into theology). I just want to know, how can I deal with this doubt without just turning away from God? Sometimes, I feel like people in the Church have no concept of these problems I have, or they can brush them off without really thinking about them, and I just feel alienated from them. It's not their fault though, but mine. I just don't know how to have faith. I don't know what to do. I really really want to believe in and love God in the same way as other Catholics and Christians, but I don't know how to stop my doubts. I sometimes beg God in my prayers to give me some relief, but it doesn't come. So in a last ditch effort to preserve what faith I have left, I just need to know what to do or how to stop myself. I am sorry for asking so much of people I don't even know, but at the moment I don't know where else to turn.

[i<3franciscans]

There are many others on here that will be able to better answer your post, but I am praying for you. Welcome to the Phamily.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='i<3franciscans' timestamp='1354026915' post='2517668']
There are many others on here that will be able to better answer your post, but I am praying for you. Welcome to the Phamily.
[/quote]
Ditto. Make yourself comfortable and stay.

[Anomaly]

Kevin,
Been there, done that. My conclusion is that you have to determine what sort of person YOU want to be. Whether you're Hindu, Pagan, Lutheran, Jewish, Catholic, or secular humanist, you're buying into a philosophical system of morals and ethics to evaluate yourself. As varied as all these systems are, they all impart a sense of right or wrong, whether it's defined by Divine Decree and expressed with theology, derived by observing human behavior and expressed with logic and philosophy, or randomly chosen and blindly followed.
You have to accept you won't meet your ideals. We know that's unhealthy egotism.

[Kevin]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1354031278' post='2517690']
Kevin,
Been there, done that. My conclusion is that you have to determine what sort of person YOU want to be. Whether you're Hindu, Pagan, Lutheran, Jewish, Catholic, or secular humanist, you're buying into a philosophical system of morals and ethics to evaluate yourself. As varied as all these systems are, they all impart a sense of right or wrong, whether it's defined by Divine Decree and expressed with theology, derived by observing human behavior and expressed with logic and philosophy, or randomly chosen and blindly followed.
You have to accept you won't meet your ideals. We know that's unhealthy egotism.
[/quote]

The problem is, I don't think I could even be a secular humanist. What good is humanity if there is no god or no soul? Whether you are kind or cruel only matters from a relativistic standpoint of how it personally benefits you or makes you feel good about yourself. And in the latter case, what makes you feel good is completely arbitrary. It's like in The Brothers Karamazov, "If God does not exist, [i]everything is permitted[/i]" because everything is equally meaningless.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Kevin' timestamp='1354032643' post='2517699']

The problem is, I don't think I could even be a secular humanist. What good is humanity if there is no god or no soul? Whether you are kind or cruel only matters from a relativistic standpoint of how it personally benefits you or makes you feel good about yourself. And in the latter case, what makes you feel good is completely arbitrary. It's like in The Brothers Karamazov, "If God does not exist, [i]everything is permitted[/i]" because everything is equally meaningless.
[/quote]
Indeed, what good is humanity if there is no god or no soul? Try looking to see how the philosophy of humanism (secular and religous) answers that question.
Are you looking for purpose and meaning in your life, or do you want to interject meaning into the whole of humanity? You are an individual living in a society. Virtue is relative to the context of your chosen beleifs. Who's Godly standards are you chosing to determine what is permitted for you personally, and/or for society?

[Kevin]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1354035137' post='2517704']
Indeed, what good is humanity if there is no god or no soul? Try looking to see how the philosophy of humanism (secular and religous) answers that question.
Are you looking for purpose and meaning in your life, or do you want to interject meaning into the whole of humanity? You are an individual living in a society. Virtue is relative to the context of your chosen beleifs. Who's Godly standards are you chosing to determine what is permitted for you personally, and/or for society?
[/quote]

My problem is not about virtue or my place in society or about what to do or not to do. I am just worried that maybe God does not exist. I mentioned that quote not in reference to virtue, but because it illustrates that, without God, metaphysical concepts like right and wrong are empty - the only reason you can possit for following them is that you might get caught and punished, or that following them might give you some sort of pleasant feeling that has been conditioned by your upbringing or evolution and is equally empty.

The problem is that, even though I feel there are many strong arguments for God's existing, I am afraid they could still be wrong. Many intelligent people, more intelligent than me, think so, probably the majority. Or at best, they would say, no one can know. Not knowing is terrible to me. I just want to know how other people are able to live peacefully without knowing. How to have faith, as it were.

[4588686]

[quote name='Kevin' timestamp='1354041843' post='2517746']

My problem is not about virtue or my place in society or about what to do or not to do. I am just worried that maybe God does not exist. I mentioned that quote not in reference to virtue, but because it illustrates that, without God, metaphysical concepts like right and wrong are empty - the only reason you can possit for following them is that you might get caught and punished, or that following them might give you some sort of pleasant feeling that has been conditioned by your upbringing or evolution and is equally empty.[/quote]

It's all arbitrary. Adding God into the mix only moves the arbitrariness back one step.


[QUOTE]The problem is that, even though I feel there are many strong arguments for God's existing, I am afraid they could still be wrong. Many intelligent people, more intelligent than me, think so, probably the majority. Or at best, they would say, no one can know. Not knowing is terrible to me. I just want to know how other people are able to live peacefully without knowing. How to have faith, as it were.
[/quote]


They don't. If people are really serious about religion then they have doubts, if they are thoughtful. If they can do it then so can you. Although personally I'm much, much happier having just accepted that there isn't a God as opposed to tying myself into knots trying to find excuses for believing. But if you want to believe then just accept that the doubts are part of the package.

[Kevin]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1354043921' post='2517756']
It's all arbitrary. Adding God into the mix only moves the arbitrariness back one step.





They don't. If people are really serious about religion then they have doubts, if they are thoughtful. If they can do it then so can you. Although personally I'm much, much happier having just accepted that there isn't a God as opposed to tying myself into knots trying to find excuses for believing. But if you want to believe then just accept that the doubts are part of the package.
[/quote]

I'm not finding excuses, at least I don't believe I am. But in any case, I understand that doubt is a part of the picture, but I don't think doubt is all of it. And

But in any case, I can't imagine being happier not believing in God. If you are trying to convince me that secular humanism is the way to go, I am much more confident in the coherence, at least, of Christianity. Trying to construct normatives about ethics or truth without reference to metaphysics is ridiculous - such normatives have nothing to stand on, they are at best heuristics. Yet most secular humanists act as though Logical Positivism was never discredited, and that its totally cool to treat science as the ultimate test of knowledge. I don't mean this as a criticism of you personally, but as I see it, the attempts of secularists to rebuild the idea of meaning have not been successful.

Also, while I appreciate your comments, at this point I just want to discuss faith. I have steeped myself in the discourses of atheism and agnosticism so much, reading their websites and their philosphical articles, and now I just want to step outside that for a moment. But again, I do appreciate it, and in no way mean that I don't respect what you're trying to say. I know doubt cannot be banished, I just don't want it running my life, and I also don't want to become irreligious.

[i<3franciscans]

I know this all must be hard for you, but pray for faith, faith to believe that there is a God.

[Kevin]

[quote name='i<3franciscans' timestamp='1354045464' post='2517785']
I know this all must be hard for you, but pray for faith, faith to believe that there is a God.
[/quote]

Thank you, that really means a lot. Actually, just getting this off my chest has made me feel a lot better. I think my problems is that I am probably the only Christian I regularly meet with (Master of Fine Arts programs aren't home to many believers) and as such I have no one to talk about my problems with. I am going to try to work on this.

[4588686]

[quote name='Kevin' timestamp='1354045241' post='2517782']
I'm not finding excuses, at least I don't believe I am. But in any case, I understand that doubt is a part of the picture, but I don't think doubt is all of it. And[/QUOTE]

I was referring to myself.

[QUOTE] But in any case, I can't imagine being happier not believing in God. If you are trying to convince me that secular humanism is the way to go, I am much more confident in the coherence, at least, of Christianity. Trying to construct normatives about ethics or truth without reference to metaphysics is ridiculous - such normatives have nothing to stand on, they are at best heuristics. Yet most secular humanists act as though Logical Positivism was never discredited, and that its totally cool to treat science as the ultimate test of knowledge. I don't mean this as a criticism of you personally, but as I see it, the attempts of secularists to rebuild the idea of meaning have not been successful.[/QUOTE]

You're reading a lot into what I'm saying. I'm not advocating secular humanism. I'm not a secular humanist. I don't think any serious person takes logical positivism seriously.

[QUOTE]Also, while I appreciate your comments, at this point I just want to discuss faith. I have steeped myself in the discourses of atheism and agnosticism so much, reading their websites and their philosphical articles, and now I just want to step outside that for a moment. But again, I do appreciate it, and in no way mean that I don't respect what you're trying to say. I know doubt cannot be banished, I just don't want it running my life, and I also don't want to become irreligious.
[/quote]

Right. And if you want to do that you have to stop fixating on the doubt. I believe that Vatican I has dictated as an article of faith that Catholics must believe that the existence of God can be proven but not that his existence has been proven. So you can be a faithful Catholic without believing tht God's existence has been proven. My advice, as someone who was in basically the exact same position as you are now is to just stop focusing on the doubt and your questions because, if you are intellectually honest, it's not going to lead to any sort of real proof. The best I would recommend would be to read MacIntyre, if you haven't already done so, and focus on the faith on a systemic level rather than trying to prove particulars.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from believing I'm just giving you advice that might have helped me retain my faith if I had talked to myself when I was where you're at now.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Hasan

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Kevin' timestamp='1354045241' post='2517782'] I know doubt cannot be banished, I just don't want it running my life, and I also don't want to become irreligious.
[/quote]Well, you have answered your own question. It's a choice, to believe in God, or not. Hasan and I have chosen to be atheists. I posit it is just as valid to chose to believe in God. Neither position can prove or disprove the other beyond all reasonable doubt.

You seem to be struggling with accepting and living your belief. Chalk it up to the basic goodness of human nature, ability of intellect, self-awareness of humans, and free will. It's not so much what you believe, but how you order your behavior. Accept you cannot possibly control or order your thoughts and behaviors perfectly under either philosophy. Regardless of whether or not there is justice or correction in another plane of existence, at your current realm of existence, you are only able to live in the present. I also would suggest that your crisis is less about [i]faith[/i], but really [u]fear[/u] of the unknown and [u]fear[/u] about things you can't possibly control. Those are fears that atheists, agnostics, and theists can have. No philosophy can promise complete and indisputable knowledge of these things, nor provide omnipotent control.

Perhaps that is the knowledge and power that Adam and Eve sought to gain. Rumor has it, that didn't work out so well... There's so much to enjoy in this existence with the people and lives we experience and know. There's already much you can can control and influence. Accept your limitations. Strive to appreciate and live with what you have instead of bypassing it to possibly gain something NOBODY else has ever had.

[Byzantine]

First off, Catholics aren't required to discredit evolution. Bl. John Paul the Great himself referred to it as "more than a hypothesis." You'll want to check out [i]Fides et Ratio,[/i] I think. Furthermore, a literal interpretation of Genesis isn't strictly necessary (again, I think this is in FeR), at least as regards creation. Genesis isn't a science textbook.

[quote]
Then there is the matter of other religions. I have always believed that, if God exists, Christianity makes the most sense. And I get the idea that God did not extend revelation to all humanity because of the Fall, and started it with Abraham and the covenant, but somehow this seems too convenient. In a way, all religions say this same thing, that they are correct and the others are not. And there is no way around it - in order for Christianity to be true, all other religions have to have been invented by the imagination in the same way Atheists say all religions were invented. I know that the idea of the divine may be a rememberance of Eden, but how did it get so skewed into the Hindu or Greek or Aztec pantheon? Why did all humanity save the Jews forget where they had come from?
[/quote]

You'll want to check Genesis. Remember that Abraham was called by God. He didn't originally worship God. The Jews only "remembered" where they came from because God told them. Otherwise they would have been as idolatrous as their neighbors.




[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1354031278' post='2517690']Whether you're Hindu, Pagan, Lutheran, Jewish, [color=#0000FF]Catholic[/color], or secular humanist, [color=#0000FF]you're buying into a philosophical system of morals and ethics to evaluate yourself[/color]. As varied as all these systems are, they all impart a sense of right or wrong, whether it's defined by Divine Decree and expressed with theology, derived by observing human behavior and expressed with logic and philosophy, or randomly chosen and blindly followed.
[/quote]


The blue is incorrect. When you enter Christianity, you're not buying into some philosophical system. You're buying into the fact that at a specific time, in a specific place, God became man, died, and rose from the dead, etc. Christ's mission was not primarily to teach some sort of moral philosophy. You don't need an Incarnation for that (cf the Law at Sinai). So, something you'll want to consider is that if you're a Christian you're not just going in for some sort of right/wrong thing. You're staking your life on an historical fact, one which others can defend better than I. But yeah. The thing when analyzing Christianity (or even Judaism or Islam, I suppose), is not deciding if it agrees with what you think is good. The question you really want to have answered here is whether or not it happened.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

That's all I have time for right now, and I'm sorry it's incomplete. I wrote a response to Anomaly and tried to go through your posts, but ran out of time and decided to just post what I have. Feel free to message me. I'd be glad to try and help. But really, you might want to post something like this in Transmundane. Praying for you.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Byzantine

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Byzantine' timestamp='1354048129' post='2517829']
[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif'][size=4][background=rgb(255,255,255)]The blue is incorrect. When you enter Christianity, you're not buying into some philosophical system. You're buying into the fact that at a specific time, in a specific place, God became man, died, and rose from the dead, etc. Christ's mission was not primarily to teach some sort of moral philosophy. [/background][/size][/font][/color][/quote]It's only a fact if you chose to believe it. That [i]believed fact [/i]is the foundation of the Catholic/Christian philosophy.