Community And Internet

[juchu]

oh wow, one day gone and so much discussion on here... a bit hard to follow since as usual I have almost no time for nothing...

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1353682609' post='2515230']
It can work for different communities in different ways.

Interesting -- I never felt a rule was "imposed" on me. I looked for a community that had such rules / guidelines as part of the training. I found the "rules" very helpful in my own training... and as a way to very directly see what environmental situations affected my growth in virtue or vice. It also gave me a framework for creating my own "rules" to be able to test myself in self discipline....

... I chose the rule -- the discipline... so it was never imposed.

I also never found that it stopped me from being treated as an adult. A superior wasn't telling me what to do - like a mother to a child - she was facilitating my vow of poverty and obedience so that I could empty myself in a real and radical and [u]total[/u] way. So that I could seek that "white martyrdom" since following my Lord to a physical cross isn't afforded to me in my geographic location. And not having internet is hardly white martyrdom.
[/quote]


Thanks for your more balanced posts, my one was surely short and showed only my point of view, but I want to say that I definetly do not want to say it has to work for everybody the way it does for me!! This was not my intention.
And maybe there is also a slight difference between Catholicism and Protestantism... Since we do not have such a long tradition of monastic life, we do not have so many "rules" or "traditions" and so on...

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1353704447' post='2515353']
Mantellata you are correct. Monasticism is meant to be a "radical" following of Christ a complete stripping away of everything because in the end Christ/God is all there is no matter what century we live in, no matter how "technologically advanced" we have become, etc. etc.

I often times wonder if many of us discerners are not looking for merely a way to keep one foot in the world and one in the cloister/monastery. I'm guilty of this surely. But it seems to me that monasticism should require everything from us because of the One who gave everything for us. Am I truly seeking God and all that THAT entails, the penances, the obediences, the manual labor? or just a nice group of women to live and die with, who will (after a certain amount of time) let me do pretty much anything I want? The latter is easy enough but am I strong enough to really plung into the former? I truly doubt it most days....
[/quote]
[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353705227' post='2515356']

There are greater challenges in the convent for me than giving up Internet (or daily showers or hot water or my favorite of all --- sleep! )


Anyone who thinks that one enters a cloister just to have a nice group of women to live and die with is - welll, it makes me laugh. There are a lot easier and nicer ways to retire, let me tell you! lol

I guess what I'm saying is that the whole life is a Cross and an austerity - and having or not having the Internet doesn't change that at all. It is just one very small part of the life.
[/quote]

Definelty! Our rule actually states not to search for ascetism but to willingly take on the burdens of daily community life as cross... Difficult to translate into english...

Okay and now I am off...

Oh but wait... one reason, and actually the MAIN reason, why I am still checking phatmass, is to keep a bit updated with your journeys so that I can PRAY for you more concretly.... So this also is for me a reason to use the internet.... since I am called to a life of prayer, yes deep personal contemplation, but also intercession.... And sometimes for me this needs to be concret...

[ACS67]

I just don't buy it guys. The monastic life has gotten along just fine for over 1500+ years without all these conveniences. We are just all too soft and too spoilt today, myself included. Call my thinking old fashion, traditional, "cult-like" whatever. If I am any of those things or all of them, then so were the giants in monasticism. I'm in good company.

On another note, none us ever answered the original posters second question which was:

[quote]And another question I have: I know that many communities allow to their novices to write letters to their parents. But what’s about their old friends? Do they have to give them all up? Or how do they handle it with the contact?
Thank you very much for your thoughts
Butterfly[/quote]
I know some Carmelites (the strict ones) and a few Poor Clare communities who only allow the postulants and novices to write to immediate family. I don't know about active orders. But again, I think this goes back to the sacrificial nature of monasticism. There has to be some sacrifice with religious life (even active orders). One doesn't get Christ without the Cross.

P.S.
Nunsense, my personal and public apology to you for my previous posts last night. You and I are just different women with different "graces." Pax.

Edited November 24, 2012 by ACS67

[mantellata]

Monasticism is also one slice of the "religious pie" let us not forget! Monasticism has also been developing from day one. St. Pachommius introduced the cenobitic life, which lead to more moderation of austerity but guarded against pride, St. Basil did the same. St. Benedict went so far as to cause those around him think he was peddling a soft lifestyle in his rule -- but he knew that humility was the most important thing, and that pride has a tendency to creep in when austerity is placed as that which is most important. So the rule's austerity lay in conformity of community practice rather than extreme fasting etc...

St. Dominic is famous among the Dominicans for several things:

1. Instituting a "generous" and even "liberal" use of dispensations for the sake of the apostolate and study.

2. Threatening to rip up the rule / constitutions with his own knife if anyone thought that breaking one would be a sin. The constitutions bound to the penalty (in-house penance if you will) but never morally.

3. Establishing a Chapter that would meet every four years to "update" the constitution according to circumstances, needs of the Church, needs of the community.

So.. mainly setting the stage for certain conveniences that aid with either the apostolate, poverty or study (which is not just for the apostolate, but sacred study for coming to know and love God more deeply.

Edited November 24, 2012 by mantellata

[mantellata]

Most communities I know (I thought I put this in my original reply) do allow for writing friends - though there may be certain differences in the time and amount allotted for such correspondence.

St. Therese had a very [u]extensive[/u] and frequent correspondence with friends and family.... so did St. Elizabeth of the Trinity. We are so much more the richer for it!

[MissScripture]

I'm glad we seem to be back on topic. Please continue this way. Thank you.

*steps off mod box*


[quote name='Butterfly' timestamp='1353580580' post='2514733']
The last time when I was thinking about religious life and about my novitiate I wondered why so many communities restrict to their postulants and novices the internet access, although they promote the community through internet and recruit their members via internet. Thoughts? Reasons? I think it can also be used as a good media and I don’t see any good reason, when the community is active. My community is in this question more open and allowed also writing mails and a limited contact to the old social life of the novices. I am wondering why this is not practice in other communities. And another question I have: I know that many communities allow to their novices to write letters to their parents. But what’s about their old friends? Do they have to give them all up? Or how do they handle it with the contact?
Thank you very much for your thoughts
Butterfly
[/quote]
My sister (Nashville Dominican) was allowed to write to friends in a more limited fashion than family, but still able to keep in touch. They do not use e-mail for communication with family and friends, so this was all through traditional mail. Her first year, she was allowed to write 2 times a month to family- no limit on the number of people in her family she could write to, so this included cousins, grandparents, siblings, parents, aunts and uncles, etc. She was limited by the number of "friend letters" she could write. That was during her postulant year. The 2nd year (novice year) she was able to write family once a month, and no friend letters, except Christmas cards or thank you notes (which she was also allowed the first year). She also did not get any "friend mail" except for special occasions, like Christmas, the feast of St. Dominic and the feast of St. Cecilia. Now that she is under temporary profession, she is again allowed to write family twice a month, and I don't know about friend mail. It has changed, however, in that the first two years, they got mail on Saturdays and wrote letters on Sundays. Now, they are more in charge of managing their own time, and are still only allowed to write to family twice a month, but they decide when that time is, and they get their mail as soon as it arrives.

All that being said, the friend letters really seemed to be much less of an issue than one might think, since only a couple very close friends wrote to my sister, so there weren't a whole ton of people to write back to! To some degree, this was expected, since so few people even understood why my sister would even think of entering a convent! And she was homeschooled her last year of high school, so some of her friends started withdrawing from her life already then. I'm sure it's different for people who aren't entering directly out of high school, too, since they have already gone through the period of moving away from home and old friends and all that, that kind of naturally happens at that point in life because of college and all that.

[ACS67]

But Mantellata I think you are forgetting the fact that all these orders you mentioned (apart from perhaps the Domincans) had "reformers" who came along because they noticed their orders were getting too "soft." The Cistericians/Trappist reformed the Benedictines. St. Collette had to get the Poor Clares back on track. The Capuchins had to get the Franciscans back to what St. Francis intended. St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross "reformed" the Carmelites because they had gone WAY soft! So, again, I'm not the only who sees that we as human beings go soft, and quickly too. I say we are very soft today and these "conveniences" might perhaps make our lives easier here in this world but as Catholics, (and certainly relgious), we are to be focused beyond this life to life everlasting. That is our goal. Far too often these "conveniences" lead us further away from God rather than hastening our souls toward Him.

You seem very well read, have you read Soul of the Apostolate by Dom Jean-Baptiste Chautard? He was a Cistercian. This book was reported to be Pope Pius X's favorite book. It is online. All active religious should read this book.
[mod]Deleted link to sedevacantist website. Please don't link to phishy websites in the future. Thanks.[/mod]

Edited November 25, 2012 by MissScripture
deleted link

[Antigonos]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353756997' post='2515888']


Does this mean I have to give up my private photo collection of the Chippendales?
[/quote]

Not if you only are a furniture collector :-)) Although that is admittedly a rather odd fetish...

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1353771548' post='2515923']
But Mantellata I think you are forgetting the fact that all these orders you mentioned (apart from perhaps the Domincans) had "reformers" who came along because they noticed their orders were getting too "soft." The Cistericians/Trappist reformed the Benedictines. St. Collette had to get the Poor Clares back on track. The Capuchins had to get the Franciscans back to what St. Francis intended. St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross "reformed" the Carmelites because they had gone WAY soft! So, again, I'm not the only who sees that we as human beings go soft, and quickly too. I say we are very soft today and these "conveniences" might perhaps make our lives easier here in this world but as Catholics, (and certainly relgious), we are to be focused beyond this life to life everlasting. That is our goal. Far too often these "conveniences" lead us further away from God rather than hastening our souls toward Him.

You seem very well read, have you read Soul of the Apostolate by Dom Jean-Baptiste Chautard? He was a Cistercian. This book was reported to be Pope Pius X's favorite book. It is online. All active religious should read this book.
[mod]Edited by moderator: Deleted link to sedevacantist website. Please don't link to phishy websites in the future. Thanks. [/mod]
[/quote]

Just wanted to point you to MissScripture's post in case you didn't see it.

[ACS67]

Yes. I saw it before I posted. Thank you.

Edited November 25, 2012 by ACS67

[Eowyn]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353756997' post='2515888']


Does this mean I have to give up my private photo collection of the Chippendales?
[/quote]

You can keep them if they look like this: (don't worry, nothing bad)

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R82B80oQcsk/THE0FvOKOYI/AAAAAAAACUI/y2GjmOUjIK8/s400/CartoonChip+and+Dale.JPG[/img]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Eowyn' timestamp='1353809664' post='2516148']
You can keep them if they look like this: (don't worry, nothing bad)

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R82B80oQcsk/THE0FvOKOYI/AAAAAAAACUI/y2GjmOUjIK8/s400/CartoonChip+and+Dale.JPG[/img]
[/quote]

Oh I love it!

And I am glad we have gotten back to the OP more. As for how much and when sisters should be allowed email or Internet access, I think I will leave that up to the superior and decision of each individual community and not worry about the opinions of anyone here (not that I don't respect the right each person has to have an opinion). My Prioress has been a Carmelite for over 50 years, and the combined years in religion of all the nuns who have a vote reassures me that whatever they decide will be for the good of the community, and in line with the charism of Our Holy Mother St Teresa, the spirit of our monastery's foundress and the teachings of the Church.

And I honestly think that no one who is not currently living the life of a cloistered nun has any right to try to dictate the terms of their offering and commitment to Our Lord. Some people talk the talk but others walk the walk (sorry, quote from Tony Robbins I know, but I do like what it says).

I personally am glad when I am under obedience because then I know that I don't have to worry about my own opinion any more. If my Prioress says I will be offline for both email and Internet until I am Professed (or forever) then I accept that with peace in my heart. But if the community votes to allow us limited access to email or the Internet for certain things then I will also be at peace.

Butterfly - the answer is that each community is different so their policies on communication are going to be different as well.

Edited November 25, 2012 by nunsense

[ACS67]

Nunsense I hope this time around in the convent works out for you. I hope you truly have found your home and you stay this time. God speed.

And now, after going to confession today I am under "obedience" to leave Phatmass. I differ far too much from the majority of the Catholics (not just in VS but all of Phatmass...especially the other areas! YIKES!) here and that difference becomes an irritation for me and that irritation becomes an occasion of sin. Therefore, I will take my leave. I truly hope all the best for all the discerners out there. Keep the Faith...the true Faith...the Faith of our Fathers.

Pax.
ACS

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1353811638' post='2516163']
Nunsense I hope this time around in the convent works out for you. I hope you truly have found your home and you stay this time. God speed.

And now, after going to confession today I am under "obedience" to leave Phatmass. I differ far too much from the majority of the Catholics (not just in VS but all of Phatmass...especially the other areas! YIKES!) here and that difference becomes an irritation for me and that irritation becomes an occasion of sin. Therefore, I will take my leave. I truly hope all the best for all the discerners out there. Keep the Faith...the true Faith...the Faith of our Fathers.

Pax.
ACS
[/quote]

I will pray for peace in your soul ACS. And we hope that after a break you feel you can return and accept us as we are because we all love you and hate to see you go just because we don't all see things the same way.

Thank you for your good wishes.

[AnneLine]

[quote name='Butterfly' timestamp='1353580580' post='2514733']
The last time when I was thinking about religious life and about my novitiate I wondered why so many communities restrict to their postulants and novices the internet access, although they promote the community through internet and recruit their members via internet. Thoughts? Reasons? I think it can also be used as a good media and I don’t see any good reason, when the community is active. My community is in this question more open and allowed also writing mails and a limited contact to the old social life of the novices. I am wondering why this is not practice in other communities. And another question I have: I know that many communities allow to their novices to write letters to their parents. But what’s about their old friends? Do they have to give them all up? Or how do they handle it with the contact?
Thank you very much for your thoughts
Butterfly
[/quote]


[i](Haven't had a chance to respond to original question... just coming back from being super-sick....)[/i]

Whether thru email or snail mail or visits, it's pretty common for communities to give new members somewhat limited access. The reason is that it is hard to make a break from family and friends (and that in a healthy way, by the way) if there is constant communication going on. It is kind of like what used to happen when people went off to college... often it was the first time a young man or woman had only limited contact with their family until Thanksgiving... and then till Christmas... and then until Easter break... and then until the Summer. So it is a maturational thing as well as a spiritual thing. BUT in this age of constant, immediate communication, it can be even harder to make that break.

The community I was in in the 1980's is a pretty traditional active-contemplative type community. We could receive mail at any time, but could only write to our families and all mail was held up during Advent and Lent. And that is still pretty much the rule as far as receiving mail and writing back. Sometimes communities have rules about receiving/replying to mail from non-relatives of the opposite sex.... but I suspect that might depend on the situation. And there are ALWAYS exceptions to those rules when it is for the good of the sister/brother or family. My father was not Catholic, and he was constantly calling and asking to talk to me. They ALWAYS let me talk to him (and frankly, it was a bit embarassing!). They understood that it wasn't my wish, but that it was a charitable thing to help him to understand that I was OK and that he wasn't losing me.

I will say this, howeover, sometimes it was HARD to get mail from home and especially from friends. Especially since I couldn't write back. It was sometimes hard to know something was going on and all I could do was pray (which of course is a BIG thing, but still, it's hard!). On the other hand, it was good to know that my friends and family cared about me, and that they were doing well. So mixed feelings....

As far as the use of email and internet -- I think that depends on the community and on the sister. I know lay people who have discerned that one or both of those are NOT right for them, or that they have to limit themselves or it can take over the whole day (have to watch myself on that one!!!!). I do know when the internet goes down, I tend to move more! And get more done! On the other hand... I've grown much more aware of Church as being the whole world, and the needs of many of you, which has animated my prayer life. I think the big question is... does it or does it not lead you closer to God and His People?

I know of at least one religious sister for whom access to the Internet made her vocation possible... and that in a fairly traditional Carmelite community. Her son was a soldier in the Middle East... .and it was the only way he was permitted to interact with family... through encripted email. Her community permitted her to access it for the limited purpose of interacting with him... and I think it was a wonderful blessing for both of them. As St. Thomas points out, Justice is not a one-thing-fits-all kind of thing... there is such a thing as 'distributive justice' -- each person gets what they NEED and that may vary from person to person. And I think poverty works much the same way.... what is simple and poor for one person isn't the same for another.... and a good superior will look at the needs of sister/brother AND those on the outside.

Praying for all.... and for us to continue this discussion always in wisdom and charity.... and listening with heart and mind and soul....

[nikita92]

One would think that one would relay the topic of electronic and snail mail rules and regulations to one's family AND FRIENDS upon entering her/his community!!!!! I for one, have only 3 people total on the outside (if I were to join). My mother is German and 83 so no e-mail for her. Plus she cant write anymore. The other 2 have laptops...and once every 6 months would be fine. Or even a year. I am a people person..have lots of people listed on my facebook..my job is Security and I work around the public. Yet...I am probably one of a very very small percent that not having people on the outside to communicate with, would even be a issue. Btw- having a debate on here isnt always a negative thing" (being nasty is another) I appreciate reading and learning from what other people have to say and feel. Holy as we want to be...we are still humans with differences. My 2 cent....