Community And Internet

[emmaberry101]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353635770' post='2515013']
I think that's what my post was trying to say. I hope you didn't misunderstand it to be a criticism against those who choose not to use the Internet because they don't need to?

'Common sense is the guide to the virtues.' This is in the Carmelite Rule of St Albert, so I completely agree with you that neither position should be made an idol.

That being said, it is also just as easy to worship at the shrine of 'no technology' as it is to do the opposite and assume that technology use is the only reason for a lack of vocations. I certainly didn't intend to come across that way. [b]I mentioned what I did because I do believe that a website can certainly provide information for those who are discerning religious life, and if one is set up, then it should be maintained and updated as necessary.[/b]

No hidden agenda there at all, really.

I am a big believer in the concept that one size does NOT fit all.


PS - I also think that sometimes (SOMETIMES) the romatic ideal of religious life can overshadow the reality of religious life and those communities who fit that romantic ideal appear to be somehow more 'real or valid' than those that chose to live in today's world. Yes, balance is the key IMO.
[/quote]

I feel bad only replying to the bold, because your posts had a ton of good "meat" in them, but I really liked the bolded bit.

I totally agree!.. And most communities who do not use email or the internet still have a website, even if it is run by friends. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your point (I thought you were speaking of communities who do not use the internet, I think now I understand that you were speaking of those who do not even have a website.) The more I am on VS, (edit: the) more I realize that, more often than not, I misunderstand what people are saying.

I don't know what part of the world you are in, but have a blessed Thanksgiving (2 hours left of it where I am)!

Edited November 23, 2012 by emmaberry101

[AccountDeleted]

emma - what you have to understand is that my opinions are just that - opinions, and no more or less valid than anyone else's opinions. But we all have a right to have them and to express them and hopefully we are all mature enough not to take offence at the opinions of others, even if we disagree. I think we are understanding each other a little better now though, and that's great. Online communication isn't easy and misunderstandings do occur, so it's good when we can discuss things like this without getting upset.

I have no problems with communities who even choose NOT to have a website or who don't want to change or update their websites, but it is certainly something that I would look at if the community was having problems attracting vocations. Not because I think it is the answer to those problems, but because I think it MIGHT help a community. I have seen too many communities in the past five years that have had to either close down or merge with others and I wondered if things might have improved had they had a better online presence before things got so desperate. I don't know. I would just think that trying everything possible (but arising out of prayer) would make sense. God's will may be for some communities to close or merge, for whatever reason, but our effort is never wasted. I would say that most religious communities have some form of Internet presence these days, even if this is only a mention on their association website or other type of information site. And yes, many communities have a friend or benefactor who sets up a site for them, that often isn't changed for many years.

But this actually takes us a little away from the focus of the OP I think, which was about communication and the Internet and limiting of Internet access and emails in the community. This a different thing entirely and can only be determined by the individual communities themselves, as they strive to interpret their various founders' charisms and intent in their own ways. I know more about Carmelites than Poor Clares, but even within the Carmelite community, no two communities view this situation exactly the same way. What might work for one community, won't do so for another. So that is why each Superior, her council and the chapter really have to make this determination within their own community, whatever our individual opinions might be about it.




BTW - I am in Australia, where they don't have a Thanksgiving holiday, but my family will all be getting together to celebrate it on Sunday because we are American. Happy TG to you too!

Edited November 23, 2012 by nunsense

[OnlySunshine]

If you want a solid example of cloistered communities attracting vocations with NO internet presence, look at:

Carmelites in Buffalo, NY
Carmelites in Valparaiso, NE (bursting at the seams!)
Carmelites in Elysburg, PA

Buffalo is represented in the website for the St. Joseph Association, but I was assured by Mother Miriam that they do not use internet or email for anything. They are entirely traditional. I was very attracted to them and I know for a fact that they have had several entrances in the past few years.

Then you look at orders like DSMME who attract vocations from a large internet presence and you can see that it doesn't depend entirely on whether the community uses the internet or not. It's important to keep a healthy perspective and not pigeon-hole communities for rules you think they should follow. Each community has to decide for themselves whether or not to use the technology available. I totally understand the need for some cloistered order to keep the "traditional" methods of writing snail mail and using the phone because of their love of austerity. But I also understand orders who benefit immensely from online presence.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1353644979' post='2515107']
If you want a solid example of cloistered communities attracting vocations with NO internet presence, look at:

Carmelites in Buffalo, NY
Carmelites in Valparaiso, NE (bursting at the seams!)
Carmelites in Elysburg, PA

Buffalo is represented in the website for the St. Joseph Association, but I was assured by Mother Miriam that they do not use internet or email for anything. They are entirely traditional. I was very attracted to them and I know for a fact that they have had several entrances in the past few years.

Then you look at orders like DSMME who attract vocations from a large internet presence and you can see that it doesn't depend entirely on whether the community uses the internet or not. It's important to keep a healthy perspective and not pigeon-hole communities for rules you think they should follow. Each community has to decide for themselves whether or not to use the technology available. I totally understand the need for some cloistered order to keep the "traditional" methods of writing snail mail and using the phone because of their love of austerity. But I also understand orders who benefit immensely from online presence.
[/quote]


I think you are right there. There are so many other factors that affect vocations too. Just a couple of these include the country where the monastery is located and the level of secularism in the culture of that country. Australia is NOT friendly to more traditional communities, especially those that wear a habit, but there are still some of these doing well here, including some that have motherhouses in other countries (like the Tyburn nuns or the Nashville Dominicans). In the US, more 'new' communities seem to arise than in any other country, and many of these are doing very well. Vocations to religious life and the priesthood seem to be doing very well in places like Afica and Asia as well.

I just don't think that one can generalize about any of this overall, but that doesn't stop us from theorizing does it? And why not? It is a topic close to our hearts or we wouldn't be here on the VS!

[juchu]

Coming back to the original topic about whether or not to have internet access and leaving out the "attracting vocations part".

I am a postulant at a protestant community, something like you would call "semi contemplative" - actually we say we are contemplative, but non cloistered.

I am allowed to use the internet, both for email and for information and it will be like this during the novitiate as well - but the simple fact is that I do not have a lot of time for all this.

My personal opinion is, that I have learned that "internet" is not sooo important buy having to find my own balance. And also I am finding that I am using it less and less. There is nothing like a "rule" oh you just have 30 minutes a day or something, it is ME who has to find the balance - and it is like this with other things as well... actually I feel taken very seriously and as an adult by doing so. If these things become less and less importnat to me (it is the same with sexuality, "earthly possessions and my own will.... ) it shows me that I am in the right place, instead of having a rule imposed on me.

My two cents.

And now I am off to clean the guests rooms, very contemplative and prayerfully

[mantellata]

It can work for different communities in different ways.

Interesting -- I never felt a rule was "imposed" on me. I looked for a community that had such rules / guidelines as part of the training. I found the "rules" very helpful in my own training... and as a way to very directly see what environmental situations affected my growth in virtue or vice. It also gave me a framework for creating my own "rules" to be able to test myself in self discipline....

... I chose the rule -- the discipline... so it was never imposed.

I also never found that it stopped me from being treated as an adult. A superior wasn't telling me what to do - like a mother to a child - she was facilitating my vow of poverty and obedience so that I could empty myself in a real and radical and [u]total[/u] way. So that I could seek that "white martyrdom" since following my Lord to a physical cross isn't afforded to me in my geographic location. And not having internet is hardly white martyrdom.

Sometimes I think we forget (and I'm not saying you personally juchu - as I respect that your community has chosen a way that obviously works very well for it to serve its ends) but I think we forget that religious life is an opportunity to follow Christ crucified. The first monks went to the desert because there were no more opportunities for martyrdom - so they found a way to follow Christ in very radical way without it.

Edited November 23, 2012 by mantellata

[ACS67]

Mantellata you are correct. Monasticism is meant to be a "radical" following of Christ a complete stripping away of everything because in the end Christ/God is all there is no matter what century we live in, no matter how "technologically advanced" we have become, etc. etc.

I often times wonder if many of us discerners are not looking for merely a way to keep one foot in the world and one in the cloister/monastery. I'm guilty of this surely. But it seems to me that monasticism should require everything from us because of the One who gave everything for us. Am I truly seeking God and all that THAT entails, the penances, the obediences, the manual labor? or just a nice group of women to live and die with, who will (after a certain amount of time) let me do pretty much anything I want? The latter is easy enough but am I strong enough to really plung into the former? I truly doubt it most days....

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1353682609' post='2515230']
It can work for different communities in different ways.

Interesting -- I never felt a rule was "imposed" on me. I looked for a community that had such rules / guidelines as part of the training. I found the "rules" very helpful in my own training... and as a way to very directly see what environmental situations affected my growth in virtue or vice. It also gave me a framework for creating my own "rules" to be able to test myself in self discipline....

... I chose the rule -- the discipline... so it was never imposed.

I also never found that it stopped me from being treated as an adult. A superior wasn't telling me what to do - like a mother to a child - she was facilitating my vow of poverty and obedience so that I could empty myself in a real and radical and [u]total[/u] way. So that I could seek that "white martyrdom" since following my Lord to a physical cross isn't afforded to me in my geographic location. And not having internet is hardly white martyrdom.

Sometimes I think we forget (and I'm not saying you personally juchu - as I respect that your community has chosen a way that obviously works very well for it to serve its ends) but I think we forget that religious life is an opportunity to follow Christ crucified. The first monks went to the desert because there were no more opportunities for martyrdom - so they found a way to follow Christ in very radical way without it.
[/quote]
[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1353704447' post='2515353']
Mantellata you are correct. Monasticism is meant to be a "radical" following of Christ a complete stripping away of everything because in the end Christ/God is all there is no matter what century we live in, no matter how "technologically advanced" we have become, etc. etc.

I often times wonder if many of us discerners are not looking for merely a way to keep one foot in the world and one in the cloister/monastery. I'm guilty of this surely. But it seems to me that monasticism should require everything from us because of the One who gave everything for us. Am I truly seeking God and all that THAT entails, the penances, the obediences, the manual labor? or just a nice group of women to live and die with, who will (after a certain amount of time) let me do pretty much anything I want? The latter is easy enough but am I strong enough to really plung into the former? I truly doubt it most days....
[/quote]

Well - guess I just see things a little differently than either of you - but that's what makes for diversity. I have no doubts that I can live without any conveniences at all, having done that 8 months in the Australian bush. Austerity is hardly the real problem (at least for me). There are greater challenges in the convent for me than giving up Internet (or daily showers or hot water or my favorite of all --- sleep! )

I see it as a matter of practical necessity or common sense. If the Internet or email would enable the community to serve God even better than use it - if not - then don't. We dont' have to go looking for imaginary Crosses to carry - convent life is full of them. And seriously, if someone considers losing the Internet a Cross then I would wonder if it was really more of an addiction than a Cross? In which case, God would be saving one from themselves. For me, I can take it or leave it, but I can also see that it is no more harmful than using a washing machine. Some Carmels still don't have tumble dryers, so I was really surprised when I lived in two that did. But in each case, it made sense, given their environment. The English could certainly benefit from using one because of their weather but they don't because of the expense, which makes perfect sense.

That's why I don't judge any community for the conveniences that they choose to use (and the Internet is basically that - a modern convenience that can save time and money). After all, most Carmelites still have a great degree of austerity in their life, with or without a tumble dryer or an Internet (BTW the tumble dryer is just an example here - not something I want to debate). Anyone who thinks that one enters a cloister just to have a nice group of women to live and die with is - welll, it makes me laugh. There are a lot easier and nicer ways to retire, let me tell you! lol

I guess what I'm saying is that the whole life is a Cross and an austerity - and having or not having the Internet doesn't change that at all. It is just one very small part of the life.

[ACS67]

[quote]
Well - guess I just see things a little differently than either of you -
[/quote]

The fact of the matter is nunsense, it is not me or mantellata that you differ from, it's the early Church Fathers/monks/nuns. They are the measure and standard I go by (a standard I fail miserably at because I'm a weak coward). It certainly has nothing to do with "diversity." That's an unfortunate phrase that far too many in the Catholic Church have bought into thanks to the many liberals who have invaded the Church. Diversity! There is only one WAY, one TRUTH, one LIFE.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1353707669' post='2515392']
The fact of the matter is nunsense, it is not me or mantellata that you differ from, it's the early Church Fathers/monks/nuns. They are the measure and standard I go by (a standard I fail miserably at because I'm a weak coward). It certainly has nothing to do with "diversity." That's an unfortunate phrase that far too many in the Catholic Church have bought into thanks to the many liberals who have invaded the Church. Diversity! There is only one WAY, one TRUTH, one LIFE.
[/quote]

You make me smile. Your post sounds very intolerant and even borders on being uncharitable so I have to restrain mysefl from replying in kind. I'm gone from this thread. But thanks for your perspective.

[ACS67]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1353708090' post='2515397']
You make me smile. Your post sounds very intolerant and even borders on being uncharitable so I have to restrain mysefl from replying in kind. I'm gone from this thread. But thanks for your perspective.
[/quote]

Look where "tolerance" has taken the Catholic Church in your own country of Australia. Look where "tolerance" has taken the Catholic Church in Brazil

[url="http://www.amerindiaenlared.org/galeria/15/"]http://www.amerindiaenlared.org/galeria/15/[/url]
(picture of people "self-communicating" as if there is such at thing)

So-called "tolerance" has the Catholic Church gripped in a world-wide apostasy. Many of the Saints of yesterday would be "intolerant" by today's standards. Am I "intolerant"? To heresy, yes ma'am, you bet I am. Uncharitable. No. It is the height of charity to point out errors. Liberalism is an EXTREME error that has saturated the mines of many, unaware.

Have a good day, I too am done with this thread.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1353714815' post='2515430']
Look where "tolerance" has taken the Catholic Church in your own country of Australia. Look where "tolerance" has taken the Catholic Church in Brazil

[url="http://www.amerindiaenlared.org/galeria/15/"]http://www.amerindia...org/galeria/15/[/url]
(picture of people "self-communicating" as if there is such at thing)

So-called "tolerance" has the Catholic Church gripped in a world-wide apostasy. Many of the Saints of yesterday would be "intolerant" by today's standards. Am I "intolerant"? To heresy, yes ma'am, you bet I am. Uncharitable. No. It is the height of charity to point out errors. Liberalism is an EXTREME error that has saturated the mines of many, unaware.

[/quote]

Wow - how did this go from talking about email use in a convents to calling people names by insinuating that they are hertics and (that dread word) liberals!? I really don't get it but I hardly think it's heresy to want to use email in a convent. If it were, then a lot of convents would have been excommunicated by now. A bit of an overreaction I think here. And it smacks of the Inquisition - kill em all first and then let God sort em out.

First Australia is not my only country - I was born in the USA and lived and went to school there til I was 17. I have lived in Australia for about 30 years, also Mexico, England, Singapore and back in the USA for another 10. I am sorry for Australia's secularism and for the same thing in the USA and Europe. But I don't see what that has to do with email use in a convent - honestly!

And tolerance for the opinions of others is not heresy - nor is it 'liberal' to be charitable in speech. Winning others over with love is much more in keeping with Christ's teaching than attacking them.

Many of the saints were intolerant - and wrong as well. St Teresa was anti-semitic and St Thomas Aquinas was sexist, but they were right in their love for God. As my model, I keep Christ in front of me, and I look to Our Holy Father's example of tolerance as well.


[quote]
Have a good day, I too am done with this thread.

[/quote]

Oh good, in that case I might stay!

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Maybe we should be careful how we word things. The desert Fathers never stated we couldn't use email... but I think Abraham Lincoln did

Obviously Nunsense and others are not alone in there opinion, as many communities make use of email and internet. And I sure this decision was well thought out and prayed over. And the flip side is true. There are many communities that do not use internet and email and I am sure that was thought and prayed over as well. And that is working for them. I think there is room for both takes on the matter. There are a lot of wonderful orders to choose from with varying degrees of usage of technology. It doesn't make anyone a "liberal" if they use the internet.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1353716327' post='2515444']
Maybe we should be careful how we word things. The desert Fathers never stated we couldn't use email... but I think Abraham Lincoln did

Obviously Nunsense and others are not alone in there opinion, as many communities make use of email and internet. And I sure this decision was well thought out and prayed over. And the flip side is true. There are many communities that do not use internet and email and I am sure that was thought and prayed over as well. And that is working for them. I think there is room for both takes on the matter. There are a lot of wonderful orders to choose from with varying degrees of usage of technology. It doesn't make anyone a "liberal" if they use the internet.
[/quote]

So you heard that quote did you (from your reference to Lincoln)... love it!

[ACS67]

I was not calling you a heretic Nunsense. If my post read that way I apologize. However, using "diverisity" is a liberal phrase and for that you get labeled "liberal leaning" in my book. Sorry. Perhaps you are not even aware of just how liberal you sound in many of your post. Hey, if you can state I sound "Intolerant" than I'm stating you sound liberal, particuarly when you condemn Saints of the Church....anyhoo...moving along....

Back to the topic: Using the internet is not necessary in a cloister. Period. Who could these nuns possibly want to "email"? Honestly? I thought the point of the black pall covering the Carmelte when she professes her vows meant that she was "dead to the world" So why would she now "email" anyone? Does Christ have an email address that I am not aware of? This is ridiculous. Research on the internet? Research what? You can't plan ahead and write a letter the old fashion way? It was good enough for St. Teresa and all the other foundresses why is not good enough for us? Are we so prone to immediacy that we have lost all sense of patience? Give me a break.