Belief Or Disbelief (war Of Words)

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353523688' post='2514328']
Our use of language is imprecise
When a person says “I believe in god”
They mean either
1. “I believe god exists”, thus I am excluding the alternatives that god doesn’t exist.
2. “I believe in the probability of god’s existence”, thus I am excluding the alternative that god probably doesn’t exist.
NOTE: Probability meaning more than 50% likely (maybe a percentage higher than 50% that is deemed compelling)
(of course the percentages are unscientifically qualified, thus subjective guesswork)



I'm not sure about the faith definition.
A person of strong faith resists considering alternatives, a person of weak faith may consider and actively explore alternatives. So to me Faith seems to be an indicator as to ones resistance to considering alternatives rather than a positive acceptance of a specific option.
[/quote]You choose a belief amongst various options. Faith explains or justifies what you don't know or can't prove emperically.

For example, I have faith in the [i]fact[/i] that man did land on the moon a number of times. I can't say with a 100% certainty that that is TRUE, but I can reasonbly (to me anyway) make the choice to believe it's true. It can't be proven unless I was transported through time and space to witness the NASA Moon Landings.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Anomaly

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353529674' post='2514411']
You choose a belief amongst various options. Faith explains or justifies what you don't know or can't prove emperically.

For example, I have faith in the [i]fact[/i] that man did land on the moon a number of times. I can't say with a 100% certainty that that is TRUE, but I can reasonbly (to me anyway) make the choice to believe it's true. It can't be proven unless I was transported through time and space to witness the NASA Moon Landings.
[/quote]

Yes, this. And while there are various options in this scenario too (did it happen, or didn't it), faith makes the choice to believe something is true even if you don't have irrefutable proof. It's the "positive" option, because it's not just saying "Well I don't believe it didn't happen so I guess I'm just going to say it did by default." It says "I DO believe this."

[hermit]

Another case Scenario...

Did God create man?, Or did man create God?... This is a Viable twist on words...

[stevil]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353531977' post='2514447']
And while there are various options in this scenario too (did it happen, or didn't it), faith makes the choice to believe something is true even if you don't have irrefutable proof. It's the "positive" option, because it's not just saying "Well I don't believe it didn't happen so I guess I'm just going to say it did by default." It says "I DO believe this."
[/quote]
Yeah, so there are two aspects to faith, they are both distinct and important.

One is the positive aspect (The acceptance of an option as truth), the other the negative (the rejection of alternatives as being untrue).
If you are faced with multiple (contradictory) alternatives and if you are going to chose one of them to believe in, you must then reject the others.

For this rejection process there are two approaches (one based on positive faith, one based on negative faith)
The positive faith approach is that you simply reject the alternatives because you chose to believe in one option (this is the most close minded approach as you haven’t considered the alternatives at all), so you promote the chosen option to being TRUE and if it is true then the other contradictory options cannot also be true.

The negative faith approach is that you explore each of the alternatives and you reject them (unscientifically) through your own biases (faith). E.g. You might reject the option that the universe came about from natural causes because you have faith that without a god there would have to be nothing before the universe was created and faith that existence can’t come from nothing.

[stevil]

I think faith is always used in an optimistic context.

A person could say, "I have faith that I am going to win this competition" but they most certainly won't say "I have faith that I am going to lose"
So stating faith is a pronouncement of one's wishful intents.

Belief doesn't have to be optimistic. A person can say "I believe that I am going to lose"

Belief is making a choice from a number of options, using faith means that one will only choose the option they see as favourable (an optimistic choice)

Edited November 22, 2012 by stevil

[stevil]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353524023' post='2514334']
Strength of faith correlates to how strongly one positively asserts their commitment.
[/quote]
A person (person A) that buries themselves in the exploration of their chosen belief e.g attends church regularly and often, attend bible study, attends bible camp, prays often etc. This person is making a large commitment towards their chosen belief.

But this is different from a person (person B) that is stoic and stubborn to the point that they won't listen to people with different viewpoints, won't listen to alternate theories, avoids people of different world views etc.

I would say that person A is highly focused and committed on gaining positive knowledge of their belief. But I don't think this necessarily means this person has strong faith. A person of weak faith could allow themselves to put their all in to try and make it work.

I would say that person B is of strong faith. They know that they are right and won't be tempted to consider alternatives.

This is contrary to what I used to think. I used to think that a person of strong faith would not be afraid to consider alternatives, to explore them with a genuine desire to understand from a different viewpoint. I would have called that person strong of faith because they weren't too scared to "test" their faith.

[Basilisa Marie]

Post 19) You can't have "negative" faith - what you're describing with the negative is still the belief aspect. Ugh I wish I could do diagrams. I need a whiteboard.
Belief (positive) and/or Belief (negative) ---> Faith (positive)

Both kinds of beliefs inform faith, and might help faith get stronger, but faith is always positive.

Post 20) Yes, good, we agree then.

Post 21) I agree again. Except that I wouldn't necessarily say that person B is of strong faith. Person B could be stubborn because he is either uninterested in pointless arguments OR because he's unsure of his own position and afraid of being convinced. Just like with person A, you can't assume either way for person B.

Growing up I was always a person who loved considering different viewpoints...partially because my faith gave me confidence that my view was right, and that at the end of the day would stand up to scrutiny (even if something looked like a temporary setback). But really what I was doing was testing my beliefs, and my faith supported that decision. Other people could decide to not test their beliefs, and their faith could underscore that position as well.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353375486' post='2513316']


If you disbelieve that prayers aren't answered, then you must explain why a prayed for event statistically has the exact same probability as an equivalent non prayed for event. If you disbelieve that god isn't love then you must explain why god sets she bears onto children.

[/quote]
When I was younger I used to question the need for prayer. God is all powerful and knows our needs right? So no need for prayer. Life's experiences has shown that there are many times where God has seen my need and responded to it without me asking. But these were times where I was unable to pray due to depression or was not aware that my burdens were greater than my strength and I was in need. There has also been times where I have been in distress or pain and prayed to him always with a feeling that he has responded and eased my burden to a point where I can cope.
My mother raised me as an Anglican. She was very involved in her Church, had been a Sunday school teacher etc. When I felt the call to become Catholic I asked my mother for her permission. She replied that of course I was free to do whatever I chose. But as I explained to her, I knew that, but it was just the thought that counts. It's all about the expression of love and respect through communication. I can tell a person with cancer that I will pray for them. They may or they may not get better and no doubt my prayer will have little bearing on God's plan for them. But it's all about the thought I think. The expression of love that touches the soul of the person knowing that a stranger cares about them and the reinforcing that in doing so God cares since it is him I speak for.
I believe your reference to she bears attacking children was OT. In a similar situation in the NT when a town had rejected Jesus and the apostles wanted to bring down vengeance, Jesus admonished them telling them to let them alone.

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