Belief Or Disbelief (war Of Words)

[stevil]

[color=#0000cd]Of course much of the way theists and atheists do battle is with regards to terminology. The way we phrase things can make things sound pleasant or displeasant, I like to try and untangle terminology, breaking things down to the essence, but of course I am tainted by my own worldview.[/color]

[color=#0000cd]Below is a post I recently wrote on an Atheist forum I regularly use. This isn't meant to start a flame war, but no doubt the Catholics on this forum will disagree with my post. I'm just interested to see how you fine folks take this post? Is it something philosophical that you can discuss or is it something you find offensive or combative? [/color]
[color=#0000cd]My intent is to be philosophical and to be honest with word usage (although I feel you ought to think I am twisting words to my advantage here).[/color]

[size=5][b]Belief or Disbelief[/b][/size]

I’ve often thought that [b]belief is not a choice[/b] because choosing to believe something seems ludicrous.

But I’ve recently come to the conclusion that [b]belief is choosing[/b] to close your mind off to (plausible) alternatives.

If you say “I believe in god” it is equivalent to saying “I won’t entertain any thoughts that the universe came about through any other way than as god’s creation”
So a person doesn't actually believe in something, they actually unconditionally disbelieve all alternatives.
To be straight up honest a person ought not say "I believe in god", they ought to instead say "I disbelieve that there isn't a god"

Choosing to disbelieve alternatives then becomes a commitment, an obligation to interpret anything that might contradict one’s unconditional disbeliefs.

If you disbelieve that prayers aren't answered, then you must explain why a prayed for event statistically has the exact same probability as an equivalent non prayed for event. If you disbelieve that god isn't love then you must explain why god sets she bears onto children.

Strength of faith (in your disbelief) is equivalent to your resolve to avoid entertaining (plausible) alternatives.

Thus a person of strong faith does not entertain alternatives (this might be likened to being close minded). A person of faltering faith (or no faith at all) allows themselves to investigate, explore and understand the alternatives (this might be likened to being open minded).

At some point people don’t just disbelieve that god doesn't exist. They pick a church/synagogue/mosque/alter along with a spiritual leader, they then [b]decide to disbelieve [/b]everything that opposes what this person tells them. They consider this to be the norm such that they deem it appropriate to talk on behalf of the “we”.

They say, “we believe that the bread and wine becomes Jesus body and blood which we consume in holy union”
This is equivalent to saying "we disbelieve that the bread and wine could be anything but Jesus body and blood"

Edited November 20, 2012 by stevil

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353375486' post='2513316']
Of course much of the way theists and atheists do battle is with regards to terminology. The way we phrase things can make things sound pleasant or displeasant, I like to try and untangle terminology, breaking things down to the essence, but of course I am tainted by my own worldview.

Below is a post I recently wrote on an Atheist forum I regularly use. This isn't meant to start a flame war, but no doubt the Catholics on this forum will disagree with my post. I'm just interested to see how you fine folks take this post? Is it something philosophical that you can discuss or is it something you find offensive or combative?
My intent is to be philosophical and to be honest with word usage (although I feel you ought to think I am twisting words to my advantage here).[/quote]EVERYBODY has the tendency to interpret ("twist") words to their advantage.
[quote]
[b]Belief or Disbelief[/b]

I’ve often thought that [b]belief is not a choice[/b] because choosing to believe something seems ludicrous.

But I’ve recently come to the conclusion that [b]belief is choosing[/b] to close your mind off to (plausible) alternatives.

If you say "I believe in god" it is equivalent to saying "I won’t entertain any thoughts that the universe came about through any other way than as god’s creation"
So a person doesn't actually believe in something, they actually unconditionally disbelieve all alternatives.
To be straight up honest a person ought not say "I believe in god", they ought to instead say "I disbelieve that there isn't a god"

Choosing to disbelieve alternatives then becomes a commitment, an obligation to interpret anything that might contradict one’s unconditional disbeliefs.[/quote]That's purely a semantical argument because of the qualification of how strongly you believe in a certain idea. A completely committed Atheist is making the same commitment as a complete committed Theist. Neither committed believer can absolutely prove the existence or non-existince of god(s). Fundamentally, belief is a choice to accept as fact, something that cannot be proven. It's a choice to the degree you want to commit to that belief. Your discussion seems to be more related to belief in Absolute Truths, something that is always true, regardless of ability to comprehend, test, verify, observe, or explain that Absolute Truth. In that sense, an Atheist and a Theist are making the same argument. An Atheist is making a pretty strong claim to say with absolute certainy, that there is NO GOD in any context, understanding, or circumstance. Granted, that is different than stating you do not believe in the God(s) of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Wiccans, Druids, etc.

[quote]If you disbelieve that prayers aren't answered, then you must explain why a prayed for event statistically has the exact same probability as an equivalent non prayed for event. If you disbelieve that god isn't love then you must explain why god sets she bears onto children.[/quote]I think you typed faster than I can comprehend. I don't have a clue what you're saying.

[quote]Strength of faith (in your disbelief) is equivalent to your resolve to avoid entertaining (plausible) alternatives.

Thus a person of strong faith does not entertain alternatives (this might be likened to being close minded). A person of faltering faith (or no faith at all) allows themselves to investigate, explore and understand the alternatives (this might be likened to being open minded).

At some point people don’t just disbelieve that god doesn't exist. They pick a church/synagogue/mosque/alter along with a spiritual leader, they then [b]decide to disbelieve [/b]everything that opposes what this person tells them. They consider this to be the norm such that they deem it appropriate to talk on behalf of the "we".

They say, "we believe that the bread and wine becomes Jesus body and blood which we consume in holy union"
This is equivalent to saying "we disbelieve that the bread and wine could be anything but Jesus body and blood"
[/quote]It's all still a choice to fundamentally believe or disbelieve. Atheists and Theists can choose their level of commitment to their fundamental beliefs and how that extrapolates to other beliefs such as angels, quantum physics, transubstantiation, and choosing how you want to act in society.

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353437927' post='2513772']
That's purely a semantical argument because of the qualification of how strongly you believe in a certain idea.
[/quote]
Yes, I’m trying to untangle the semantics so that I am clear on things.
Belief is acknowledgement that it is not fact, but it is choosing one option and closing the door somewhat on plausible alternatives.

Faith, I presume is the indicator with regards to how strongly the door has been closed on the plausible alternatives. Strong faith means won’t consider alternatives, little to no faith means, open to alternatives (maybe even actively investigating alternatives)


[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353437927' post='2513772']
A completely committed Atheist is making the same commitment as a complete committed Theist.
[/quote]
Agreed, a Strong Atheist is a believer.

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353437927' post='2513772']
Fundamentally, belief is a choice to accept as fact, something that cannot be proven. It's a choice to the degree you want to commit to that belief.
[/quote]
Yes, this is what I am exploring.
In the past I have had a theist tell me that it is my choice not to believe in gods.
I found this to be a strange statement because I can’t understand how a person can simply make a conscious choice. It seems absurd to me, that a person can choose to believe something. Either you do or don’t based on how compelling you find the arguments for or against. You are not just sitting on the fence and decide despite the lack of facts to dive off onto one side of the fence or the other. But maybe that is what believers do. I am just trying to understand this.

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353437927' post='2513772']
Your discussion seems to be more related to belief in Absolute Truths, something that is always true, regardless of ability to comprehend, test, verify, observe, or explain that Absolute Truth. In that sense, an Atheist and a Theist are making the same argument.
[/quote]
Lets be clear, you are talking about Strong Atheists, those with a belief that there are no gods. Most atheists are weak atheists, lacking belief with regards to gods, not for nor against.


[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353437927' post='2513772']
It's all still a choice to fundamentally believe or disbelieve. Atheists and Theists can choose their level of commitment to their fundamental beliefs and how that extrapolates to other beliefs such as angels, quantum physics, transubstantiation, and choosing how you want to act in society.
[/quote]
Yes, I have noticed that even scientists can be resistant to new theories and models even if those meet all the observations. If it is contrary to their current belief on how things work then it can takes years before they accept the new theories.

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353437927' post='2513772']
[quote]
If you disbelieve that prayers aren't answered, then you must explain why a prayed for event statistically has the exact same probability as an equivalent non prayed for event. If you disbelieve that god isn't love then you must explain why god sets she bears onto children.[/quote]
I think you typed faster than I can comprehend. I don't have a clue what you're saying.
[/quote]
What I am saying is that although things taken at face value seem contradictory to a person without belief, a person with belief can always explain away contradictions, thus maintaining their belief.

[Ed Normile]

Atheists have strong faith, faith is described as belief without proof . They are also closed minded types, its ok for them to have their life shaping faith that there is no God, but how dare anyone have a faith that there is a God .

Its similar to the " pro-choice " people its ok for anyone to be pro-choice as long as their choice is not pro-life.

ed

[stevil]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1353479754' post='2514110']
Atheists have strong faith, faith is described as belief without proof . They are also closed minded types, its ok for them to have their life shaping faith that there is no God, but how dare anyone have a faith that there is a God .
[/quote]
Most atheists are weak atheists, they don't believe either way, there might be a god, there might not be, just not enough evidence to decide either way.

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1353479754' post='2514110']
Its similar to the " pro-choice " people its ok for anyone to be pro-choice as long as their choice is not pro-life.
[/quote]
Most pro-choicers are OK with individuals choosing not to abort, actually a lot of us would prefer people not to abort, we just won't force an option on them.

[Papist]

Belief is a choice. The evidence points you to which belief to choose.

[The Mater Dolorosa]

I don't know if it applies here or not, but Chesterton once said something like this...

It is better to believe and live a good faith filled life on the chance that God does exist, than to not believe and find out he does...

[stevil]

[quote name='The Mater Dolorosa' timestamp='1353507629' post='2514201']
I don't know if it applies here or not, but Chesterton once said something like this...

It is better to believe and live a good faith filled life on the chance that God does exist, than to not believe and find out he does...
[/quote]
Is that because the belief is that god will punish those that consider plausible alternatives, those that keep an open mind to all possibilities and actively seek to explore them.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote][color=#282828][font='Open Sans', sans-serif]I found this to be a strange statement because I can’t understand how a person can simply make a conscious choice. It seems absurd to me, that a person can choose to believe something. Either you do or don’t based on how compelling you find the arguments for or against. You are not just sitting on the fence and decide despite the lack of facts to dive off onto one side of the fence or the other. But maybe that is what believers do. I am just trying to understand this.[/font][/color][/quote]

What you describe here is how many religious people feel about believing in God. To many, the existence of a loving God is self-evident.

Belief is a choice, but not like the kind of choice of what to have for lunch. For many, the choice doesn't require deliberation. But you've still made a decision on the issue, so in that sense, you've made a choice. Other people make a decision about God after careful deliberation and accumulating a series of convincing arguments (Aquinas' five proofs, etc). But regardless of whether or not a person deliberates on the issue, it's still a kind of choice.

Maybe the issue here is thinking that decisions are made between equally worthy (or similarly worthy) options. Or that the decision to believe something doesn't require adequate reasons.

Belief is choosing to eliminate conflicting options, but it's not an arbitrary choice. What you're doing here is a [i]via negativa[/i]. And while there is some merit to defining something by what it's not, it's not the only way to define something. You don't get the whole picture.


The whole picture includes what you're talking about - deciding other options aren't valid, so you choose to no longer consider them. But you're jumping to the conclusion without working your way there. People eliminate those options either because A)they are insufficiently convincing, for whatever reason or B)another option is MORE convincing. You can't just ignore the "more convincing" (aka the "positive") part. Belief could be A, B, or A and B.

Or what about this: belief may sometimes be only a choice AGAINST other options, but faith is always the choice FOR something. Belief is a step on the road to Faith.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353375486' post='2513316']
If you disbelieve that prayers aren't answered, then you must explain why a prayed for event statistically has the exact same probability as an equivalent non prayed for event. If you disbelieve that god isn't love then you must explain why god sets she bears onto children.
[/quote]

I don't think you understand how prayer works. Prayer is no more a scientific transaction than a conversation with another person. Prayers are not quantifiable - you can't apply statistics to them. Prayer also doesn't work like an input-output machine. You don't input prayer and receive some kind of response, just like how you don't leave your friend a voicemail and know that you'll get a particular kind of response, when you'll get a response, or any kind of response at all. God has just as much (maybe more?) agency as (than?) we do. Just as we can leave a person a voicemail, and that person can choose to respond with a phone call in return, that person can also choose to send a text, email, or wait until they see you in person to respond, so too when we pray, God can respond with any kind of answer in any kind of way.

We believe that God is all-loving. We also know that God is all-powerful, and all-knowing. Therefore, we know that God has motives and abilities that we cannot hope to understand, because we have profound limits on our power and knowledge. Which is a fancy way of answering the problem of evil with "None of us really know, chief." But that doesn't stop us from believing in a loving God, because we have faith that God knows what God is doing. We give up some control over understanding our lives in that act of faith.


[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353375486' post='2513316']
Strength of faith (in your disbelief) is equivalent to your resolve to avoid entertaining (plausible) alternatives...
[/quote]

Like I said before, Faith is a positive choice for something, not a negative one. A person of faith also is a person of belief, and belief can include this decision against other options. Faith requires belief implicitly, but belief does not require faith.

[stevil]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353522678' post='2514319']
People eliminate those options either because A)they are insufficiently convincing, for whatever reason or B)another option is MORE convincing. You can't just ignore the "more convincing" (aka the "positive") part. Belief could be A, B, or A and B.
[/quote]
Our use of language is imprecise
When a person says “I believe in god”
They mean either
1. “I believe god exists”, thus I am excluding the alternatives that god doesn’t exist.
2. “I believe in the probability of god’s existence”, thus I am excluding the alternative that god probably doesn’t exist.
NOTE: Probability meaning more than 50% likely (maybe a percentage higher than 50% that is deemed compelling)
(of course the percentages are unscientifically qualified, thus subjective guesswork)


[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353522678' post='2514319']
Or what about this: belief may sometimes be only a choice AGAINST other options, but faith is always the choice FOR something. Belief is a step on the road to Faith.
[/quote]
I'm not sure about the faith definition.
A person of strong faith resists considering alternatives, a person of weak faith may consider and actively explore alternatives. So to me Faith seems to be an indicator as to ones resistance to considering alternatives rather than a positive acceptance of a specific option.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353523688' post='2514328']
Our use of language is imprecise
When a person says “I believe in god”
They mean either
1. “I believe god exists”, thus I am excluding the alternatives that god doesn’t exist.
2. “I believe in the probability of god’s existence”, thus I am excluding the alternative that god probably doesn’t exist.
NOTE: Probability meaning more than 50% likely (maybe a percentage higher than 50% that is deemed compelling)
(of course the percentages are unscientifically qualified, thus subjective guesswork)
[/quote]

Well, yeah, but people say one thing and mean another all the time.
Like I said, belief CAN be about the exclusion of alternatives. In fact, sure, it always includes the exclusion of alternatives. But it could also equally mean "I believe god exists...because I had an experience that can only be explained by divine intervention." In this sense, sure, the person is eliminating other possible reasons for said experience, but they're simultaneously saying "this is the best option." You can't just ignore "this is the best option."

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353523688' post='2514328']
I'm not sure about the faith definition.
A person of strong faith resists considering alternatives, a person of weak faith may consider and actively explore alternatives. So to me Faith seems to be an indicator as to ones resistance to considering alternatives rather than a positive acceptance of a specific option.
[/quote]

Strength of faith correlates to how strongly one positively asserts their commitment. A person of faith resists alternatives, but only as a incidental result of asserting another option so positively.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353523688' post='2514328']
Our use of language is imprecise
When a person says “I believe in god”
They mean either
1. “I believe god exists”, thus I am excluding the alternatives that god doesn’t exist.
2. “I believe in the probability of god’s existence”, thus I am excluding the alternative that god probably doesn’t exist.
NOTE: Probability meaning more than 50% likely (maybe a percentage higher than 50% that is deemed compelling)
(of course the percentages are unscientifically qualified, thus subjective guesswork)

[/quote]

I missed something before:

What you're saying in context of what I said is that option "A" (negative) can be broken down into A1 and A2. B still exists.

[The Mater Dolorosa]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353521414' post='2514307']
Is that because the belief is that god will punish those that consider plausible alternatives, those that keep an open mind to all possibilities and actively seek to explore them.
[/quote]
It's not up to me to judge, it's up to God...