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kujo

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[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353449735' post='2513867']


Of the 20 countries in that picture, 6 are Arab.


That picture is marginally racist in two ways. First off all in homogenizing 'Arabs' in a way that issues of Palestinians are uniform with those of Arab populations living in Yemen which are actually very different cultures. Nobody would assume that somebody living in the UK is basically the same as somebody living in Serbia. And in the fact that the creator of the graphic is apparently ignorant enough to believe that Iran, Turkey, and the Central Asian state in the picture are Arab. Which they are most certainly not.
[/quote]
You are correct. There is an injustice here.

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[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1353466166' post='2513995']
It's illegal now to gain lands by militaristic means. Okay. So South Vietnam regains its independence, Texas goes back to Mexico, and the rest of the US goes back to the UK. Noted.
(Not to mention the fact that they've already long since ceded the Sinai Peninsula, far and away the largest gain of the 1967 conflict by area at about three times the size of present-day Israel.)
[/quote]
I don't know much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (it's on my list of things to read about), but if you accept this premise (that it's okay to win land militarily) then why wouldn't the Arabs have a right to continue fighting for the land?

Also "illegal" and "immoral" are two different things. What does one do with historical injustices? That's a thorny question.

Edited by Era Might
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[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1353502073' post='2514172']
I don't know much about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (it's on my list of things to read about), but if you accept this premise (that it's okay to win land militarily) then why wouldn't the Arabs have a right to continue fighting for the land?

Also "illegal" and "immoral" are two different things. What does one do with historical injustices? That's a thorny question.
[/quote]
It gets even thornier when you wonder how far back you want to travel in history and create a new bench mark?

Should nations and borders be set to what existed before the Ottoman Empire?
How about at the time of the Roman Empire?
How about before Romans conqured the kingdom of Judea?
Oh, how about before the Israelites (with a Divine Mandate for Conquest) captured the City of Jericho at which time they killed all the civillians. It's all fine if your GOD tells you to.

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This question really isn't this complicated. People keep speaking as though the OTs have been absorbed into Israel. They have not. Israel does not claim that the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. The official Israeli position is that they should form the basis of a Palestinian state someday. The official American position is that they should form the basis of a future Palestinian state. The official international positions is that they should be the basis of a future Palestinian state.

The problem is that despite their pro forma position Israel is absorbing more and more of the OTs through settlements. Which are illegal. This is true according to both the UN and as an official position of the United States. In fact, the first President Bush tried to force Israel to cease the settlements util Clinton ran to the right of him on the issue (not the first or last time Clinton but his personal advancement over decency) but even that isn't a question here since Israel no longer has settlements in Gaza.

The problem with Gaza is that Israel has a very cruel blockade around the area and controls a great deal of what can occur within the territories. We're basically in a cycle of violence in which the ruling block of both sides has an incentive to continue the conflict. I think Israel bears the most responsibility since there is such a tremendous asymmetry of power. Although that is changing. Netanyahu is helping Hamas become much more powerful. Hamas now has relations with Egypt and Turkey and America is even talking to Hamas indirectly. As usual Israel's heavy handedness is having the opposite effect. Hamas is growing more powerful from this conflict. Which is fine for Netanyahu since he so very obviously does not want a viable two-state solution to ever actually come to be.

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[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353515809' post='2514263']
This question really isn't this complicated. People keep speaking as though the OTs have been absorbed into Israel. They have not. Israel does not claim that the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. The official Israeli position is that they should form the basis of a Palestinian state someday. The official American position is that they should form the basis of a future Palestinian state. The official international positions is that they should be the basis of a future Palestinian state.

The problem is that despite their pro forma position Israel is absorbing more and more of the OTs through settlements. Which are illegal. This is true according to both the UN and as an official position of the United States. In fact, the first President Bush tried to force Israel to cease the settlements util Clinton ran to the right of him on the issue (not the first or last time Clinton but his personal advancement over decency) but even that isn't a question here since Israel no longer has settlements in Gaza.

The problem with Gaza is that Israel has a very cruel blockade around the area and controls a great deal of what can occur within the territories. We're basically in a cycle of violence in which the ruling block of both sides has an incentive to continue the conflict. I think Israel bears the most responsibility since there is such a tremendous asymmetry of power. Although that is changing. Netanyahu is helping Hamas become much more powerful. Hamas now has relations with Egypt and Turkey and America is even talking to Hamas indirectly. As usual Israel's heavy handedness is having the opposite effect. Hamas is growing more powerful from this conflict. Which is fine for Netanyahu since he so very obviously does not want a viable two-state solution to ever actually come to be.
[/quote]


Indeed. A brilliant and informative analysis.

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dominicansoul

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353516177' post='2514266']
Hamas blows up bus, celebrates in the streets.

[url="http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE8AK0HS20121121?irpc=932"]http://mobile.reuter...121121?irpc=932[/url]
[/quote]

sad

:ohno:

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[quote]
The problem is that despite their pro forma position Israel is absorbing more and more of the OTs through settlements. [/quote]Personally, I think if they're going to keep on doing that, we should force them to eat the entirety of the West Bank. Give Israeli citzenship to all the Palestinians there.

Wait, what's this? you don't want Palestinians to become Israeli citizens because you want to preserve the Jewish character of the state? You just want to steal their land?

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