Israel-hamas

[Gabriela]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1353368773' post='2513247']
Something not often discussed in these threads but seems to be lightly touched upon already with property rights over the years...entire generations of Israelis have been born and raised in what many declare as being Palestinian land. Again, the question becomes, whose land is whom's? The people who lived upon it sixty years ago or those who have been born and raised there?
[/quote]

I was going to point this out, until you did. :-)

[quote name='LadyOfSorrows' timestamp='1353387342' post='2513465']
Also, there were always Jews living in the area of current day Israel before it was actually declared a state. Massive immigration took place before and following the Holocaust, and of course we know that they were there for hundreds, thousands of years. Depending on the time in history, there may have been more, there may have been less. Most often they were persecuted and lived in fear for their lives. Seems to be a common theme for them...
[/quote]

And I was going to follow up with this, until you did!

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1353388488' post='2513470']
The ironic thing is, if you read about the beginnings of modern Israel, you'll find out that Jewish terrorist organizations played a big role. Lots of terror bombings and assassinations. Google "Irgun" or "Haganah." More or less, the Palestinians learned it from the Israelis.
[/quote]

It's true that Jewish terrorist organizations bombed some British sites during the British occupation of the Holy Land. In fact, there are extremist Jewish settler movements today that engage in terrorist acts (google "price tag" attacks). But I don't think it's fair to say that Palestinians learned it from Israelis. The "styles" are completely different.

[quote name='LadyOfSorrows' timestamp='1353390523' post='2513496']
Also, I would agree. It would be interesting to see a statement from the Holy See. It seems like much of the world is silent right now...
[/quote]
[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1353388488' post='2513470']
What can the Pope say except these people need Jesus? But that would only inflame the situation, although true.
[/quote]

This is what bothers me. Although, I believe the Holy Father did declare a day of prayer for the Middle East a few days ago, no?

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1353369401' post='2513255']
Which box deals with the crushing blockade and Israeli occupation of the residents of the Gaza Strip, where unemployment is rampant and poverty is skyrocketing, creating and perpetuating more hatred towards Israel that the extremist within Hamas manipulate for their own gain?
[/quote]

Israel has been delivering supplies into Gaza even during wartime. It provides electricity to the entire territory of Gaza. It permits Palestinians to cross into Israel not only to receive medical treatment, but also to work (though numbers of Palestinians with Israeli work visas since the Second Intifada have been very limited). The same humanitarian stance cannot be said of Egypt. Its crossing (Rafah) is closed to Palestinians even in wartime.

What occupation of the residents of Gaza are you talking about? Israel occupied Gaza for security reasons after the 1967 War, in which it captured the Sinai Peninsula, which is adjacent to Gaza, and so therefore occupied Gaza as a bridge between Israel proper and its new territory in the Sinai. Sinai was returned to Egypt (who had started the 1967 War, and lost) in 1979. In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza. Since then, daily rocket attacks...

I was in Israel during the Gaza Disengagement. It was a mess. And if you wanna' talk about property rights, let's talk about the now-Palestinian occupation of those homes the Jewish settlers were forced to leave in Gaza. (Yes, forced by the Israeli government, but forced in the proper sense—i.e., literally at gunpoint—in a way that Palestinians were never forced to abandon their homes.)

The point is: This is a complicated situation. If people keep looking back to the past for grounds for future peace, they'll never agree at which point of the past they should look. They need to look at now, and the future. So many wrongs have been committed by both sides that they will never all be righted. How can one even begin to quantify and compare them in an attempt to "justly" balance the scales? I'm sure God knows, but being human, this is way, way beyond us. It doesn't make sense, therefore, to argue over who's wronged who how many times and how gravely and in what ways in the past. Everyone needs to look at the situation as it stands now, make some sacrifices, and establish peace. NOW.

[LadyOfSorrows]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353397778' post='2513556']
Israel has been delivering supplies into Gaza even during wartime. It provides electricity to the entire territory of Gaza. It permits Palestinians to cross into Israel not only to receive medical treatment, but also to work (though numbers of Palestinians with Israeli work visas since the Second Intifada have been very limited). The same humanitarian stance cannot be said of Egypt. Its crossing (Rafah) is closed to Palestinians even in wartime.

[/quote]

This. Israel has also been leaving pamphlets out, telling civilians to leave the area it will be attacking. There are also calls made to everyone in buildings that may be in harms way. This is because Israel is trying to get at areas that contain weaponry. The same cannot be said of the militants in Gaza who are directly trying to attack civilians.

Edited November 20, 2012 by LadyOfSorrows

[Papist]

[img]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/63346_441455809235248_1934452982_n.jpg[/img]

[Maximilianus]

um, not all those lands are Arab.

[Papist]

That is correct.....not all

[4588686]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353397778' post='2513556']

What occupation of the residents of Gaza are you talking about? Israel occupied Gaza for security reasons after the 1967 War, in which it captured the Sinai Peninsula, which is adjacent to Gaza, and so therefore occupied Gaza as a bridge between Israel proper and its new territory in the Sinai. Sinai was returned to Egypt (who had started the 1967 War, and lost) in 1979. In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza. Since then, daily rocket attacks...

I was in Israel during the Gaza Disengagement. It was a mess. And if you wanna' talk about property rights, let's talk about the now-Palestinian occupation of those homes the Jewish settlers were forced to leave in Gaza. (Yes, forced by the Israeli government, but forced in the proper sense—i.e., literally at gunpoint—in a way that Palestinians were never forced to abandon their homes.)

The point is: This is a complicated situation. If people keep looking back to the past for grounds for future peace, they'll never agree at which point of the past they should look. They need to look at now, and the future. So many wrongs have been committed by both sides that they will never all be righted. How can one even begin to quantify and compare them in an attempt to "justly" balance the scales? I'm sure God knows, but being human, this is way, way beyond us. It doesn't make sense, therefore, to argue over who's wronged who how many times and how gravely and in what ways in the past. Everyone needs to look at the situation as it stands now, make some sacrifices, and establish peace. NOW.
[/quote]


Palestinians were forced to abandon their homes. This has been known for decades but was unarguably documented by the (Israeli) historian Benny Morris (who, by the way, has stated that he believes the ethnic cleansing was justified and could be justified again with Israel's current Arab population, so not a dove on this issue).

That lie about broadcasts being the cause of Palestinian flights has been demonstrated to be pure propaganda since the late 80's (literally, it's origins were in propaganda pamphlets in the early 50's, as I recall). Christopher Hitchens wrote a wonderful essay on the subject.

And the settlements were and are illegal under international law and even in official US positions.

You are correct that there is too much focus on past wrongs but it is curious for you to make this claim after dispensing a stunningly inaccurate and one-sided historical narrative in which Israel meek and mild is the victim of persistent Palestinian villainy.

[4588686]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1353131522' post='2511692']
I stand with Israel and Rome on this one.

Ideally, the deal would be stacked in Israel's favor. It's not as though there aren't other Arab states in the area...
[/quote]


That's a fairly racist thing to say.

[4588686]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1353443776' post='2513823']
[img]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/63346_441455809235248_1934452982_n.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Of the 20 countries in that picture, 6 are Arab.


That picture is marginally racist in two ways. First off all in homogenizing 'Arabs' in a way that issues of Palestinians are uniform with those of Arab populations living in Yemen which are actually very different cultures. Nobody would assume that somebody living in the UK is basically the same as somebody living in Serbia. And in the fact that the creator of the graphic is apparently ignorant enough to believe that Iran, Turkey, and the Central Asian state in the picture are Arab. Which they are most certainly not.

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353161632' post='2511780']


The existence of Isreal as a Jewish Country is an affront to the indigent Arabs and the Muslims. It's all well and good to have a Palistinian State, but even if established, way too many would percieve it as a first step of regaining the entire area and eliminating the artificial Israeli nation that was imposed on them. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Jewish people to fundamentally fear for their existence given historical reality and current rhetoric of leaders who fundamentally hate them.
[/quote]


There was an official deal proposed by Saudi Arabia not too long ago that would official recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for an end to the settlements. Something like that. Anyway, it brought basically uniform recognition of Israel's right to exist by all the major Arab states. I think that acting as though the leaders of the Arab states are so viscerally opposed to Israel that they are incapable of acting self-interestedly is somewhat silly and pretty contrary to the actual empirical data.

[4588686]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/arab-states-unanimously-approve-saudi-peace-initiative-1.216851

An offer of peace in exchange for Israel ending it's occupation of the lands captured in 1967. Which is really a nice diplomatic prize to get for merely coming into line with international law.

[arfink]

Why does Israel fight the hummus?

[img]http://my.loudclick.net/Sites/5732/WWW/Assets/Images/appetizersandsnacks/hummus5.jpg[/img]

Don't fight the hummus. It's good for you.

[Winchester]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1353451519' post='2513886']
hummus
[/quote]
and tabouli, and baba ganoush


and rice cakes

rice cakes

rice cakes

[4588686]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353449735' post='2513867']


Of the 20 countries in that picture, 8 are Arab.


That picture is marginally racist in two ways. First off all in homogenizing 'Arabs' in a way that issues of Palestinians are uniform with those of Arab populations living in Yemen which are actually very different cultures. Nobody would assume that somebody living in the UK is basically the same as somebody living in Serbia. And in the fact that the creator of the graphic is apparently ignorant enough to believe that Iran, Turkey, and the Central Asian state in the picture are Arab. Which they are most certainly not.
[/quote]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353450941' post='2513880']
[url="http://www.haaretz.com/news/arab-states-unanimously-approve-saudi-peace-initiative-1.216851"]http://www.haaretz.c...iative-1.216851[/url]

An offer of peace in exchange for Israel ending it's occupation of the lands captured in 1967. Which is really a nice diplomatic prize to get for merely coming into line with international law.
[/quote]
It's illegal now to gain lands by militaristic means. Okay. So South Vietnam regains its independence, Texas goes back to Mexico, and the rest of the US goes back to the UK. Noted.
(Not to mention the fact that they've already long since ceded the Sinai Peninsula, far and away the largest gain of the 1967 conflict by area at about three times the size of present-day Israel.)

[4588686]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1353466166' post='2513995']
It's illegal now to gain lands by militaristic means. Okay. So South Vietnam regains its independence, Texas goes back to Mexico, and the rest of the US goes back to the UK. Noted.[/QUOTE]

Was the US a member of the UN during that time? And there is tremendous difference between one state conquering the land of another and a colony breaking free from a state. do you think that the conquest of land should be allowed? I don't understand your argument.

I don't know why you keep trying to pretend that the OT's and Israel proper are the same thing. The OT's have not been formally incorporated into Israel and the populations therein are not Israeli citizens.

[QUOTE](Not to mention the fact that they've already long since ceded the Sinai Peninsula, far and away the largest gain of the 1967 conflict by area at about three times the size of present-day Israel.)
[/quote]

Ok?