Israel-hamas

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353307669' post='2512837']

It looked to me on page 2 like it was starting to get aggressive, descending into sarcasm and all... I'm glad you see no issues. Hopefully the moderators won't, either!
[/quote]
As is often the case, I have personally and singlehandedly brought intelligent, reasoned discussion to a powder-keg thread.

[img]http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/eagle.jpg[/img]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353307562' post='2512836']
Regarding property law in Israel: All land in Israel is owned by the Israeli government. When you buy a house, you lease the land that the house stands on for 50 years (I believe that, in some cases, you can lease it for 100). After the lease is up, you have to request a renewal of the lease. In other words, no Israeli (or non-Israeli) citizen owns property in Israel. The law is so designed for security reasons, i.e., to allow the Israeli government to seize land if necessary for security purposes.
[/quote]
I wonder though, which people personally owned property before Israel existed. Were people actually evicted from their own property through the establishment of Israel? Do those people maintain a legitimate property claim?
Because honestly, I do not know. But the people involved are infinitely more important than posturing, warmongering governments and wannabe governments.

[Gabriela]

Some of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank owned property in Israel proper before the 1948 War (or more accurately, their families did). They were not evicted in the sense in which we think of it. They left their homes in wartime, and on attempting to return (which not all of them did), they were denied entrance for security reasons (and, some claim, just because Israel was ticked off that they had abandoned the State in a time of war, clearly siding with the enemy). Some people (mostly Arabs) claim that Israel denied them re-entry solely in order to confiscate their property. It is true that the Israeli government made quite a lot of money off of re-selling that property, but it can hardly be said that that was their sole purpose in denying them re-entry after they had sided with the enemy in a time of war. It has been claimed, however, that Moslem Arabs left the new State because Arab leaders not just urged them to leave, but told them that Israelis were going to try to annihilate them. It may be true that they were told that (I don't know for sure, and I believe it is mighty hard to come by the original Arabic documents that record those announcements), but there was certainly no reason for them to believe it, as Israel had accepted the division of land under the British Mandate and had shown no signs of wanting or attempting to usurp Arab-owned lands. Still, if they were told that, then it's understandable if they believed it, as they likely would have trusted fellow Arabs more than Jews.

Whether people who voluntarily left their homes in a time of war and were denied re-entry for security reasons still maintain a legitimate property claim is, I think, a philosophical ethical question. I don't know that people could ever agree on that. All I can tell you is what Israeli property law says. Clearly the situation has led to immense suffering among Palestinians. The resettlement situation was certainly dire in the immediate aftermath of the 1948 War, but Palestinians have all re-settled by this point somewhere or another (the refugee camps are another story altogether), and could be leading happy, prosperous lives, I think, if only their leadership would focus on peace and building the economy.

Edited November 19, 2012 by curiousing

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353309088' post='2512849']
Whether people who voluntarily left their homes in a time of war and were denied re-entry for security reasons still maintain a legitimate property claim is, I think, a philosophical ethical question.[/quote]

Indeed. And for me, that is what matters most. Frankly I do not care which governments or wannabe governments are making what claims. They can whine as long as they want. For me what counts is the individual people, who may, or perhaps may not, have legitimate claims to property that was taken from them. I do not really care if they are Arabs or Jews, Christian or Muslim or whatever. For me it is primarily an ethical question, and one which, it seems, there is no one best answer.
Of course it is easy for me to say that, not living there, and not having a stake in the outcome.

Situations like these show pretty clearly why I find politics so disgusting and in general unworthy of ethical human beings. The governments and 'authorities' here do not care about the people. They care about land and money and influence. Meanwhile people are suffering and dying. It is shameful.

[LadyOfSorrows]

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdqxk6sk2v1rnom7fo1_500.jpg[/img]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353307922' post='2512839']
As is often the case, I have personally and singlehandedly brought intelligent, reasoned discussion to a powder-keg thread.
[/quote]
I extend a one handed clap in your general direction.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1353366495' post='2513200']
I extend a one handed clap in your general direction.
[/quote]

Āmítuó Fó

[img]http://hkmdb.com/db/images/movies/14060/Shaolin+2011-30-b.jpg[/img]

Edited November 19, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[BG45]

Something not often discussed in these threads but seems to be lightly touched upon already with property rights over the years...entire generations of Israelis have been born and raised in what many declare as being Palestinian land. Again, the question becomes, whose land is whom's? The people who lived upon it sixty years ago or those who have been born and raised there?

[kujo]

[quote name='LadyOfSorrows' timestamp='1353358397' post='2513106']
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdqxk6sk2v1rnom7fo1_500.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Which box deals with the crushing blockade and Israeli occupation of the residents of the Gaza Strip, where unemployment is rampant and poverty is skyrocketing, creating and perpetuating more hatred towards Israel that the extremist within Hamas manipulate for their own gain?

[LadyOfSorrows]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1353369401' post='2513255']
Which box deals with the crushing blockade and Israeli occupation of the residents of the Gaza Strip, where unemployment is rampant and poverty is skyrocketing, creating and perpetuating more hatred towards Israel that the extremist within Hamas manipulate for their own gain?
[/quote]

Israel doesn't hang her homosexuals or deny basic education to women. Israel doesn't attempt to kill her own people by suicide bombs. She doesn't elect terrorist regimes. It looks like areas of Palestine have many more problems than just poverty. Many civilians are dying, yes, but militants in Gaza are using women and children as human shields. That's awful and disturbing. Israel is offering medical aid as well to those who are crossing the border because they aren't able to find decent medical care over there. Israel is offering aid to those civilians who are in harms way. Hamas isn't doing that...and Hamas is aiming straight at Israeli civilians.

I'm not happy about the current situation, I'm sure everyone would prefer it not be this way. Unfortunately it was a long time coming. A cease fire is being discussed but it won't be without serious negotiations. Both sides are unhappy and without negotiation it will only get worse. There seems to be a different though...Israel isn't opposed to there being a Palestinian state. We KNOW that. She has offered land. But it doesn't help when Palestinians use that land as a launching pad for missiles. That doesn't fly with Israel. She won't tolerate it and she doesn't have to.

I'm interested to see where this goes. It's a serious situation but maybe a breaking point for some negotiation that may satisfy all parties involved. Hopefully.

[LadyOfSorrows]

Also, there were always Jews living in the area of current day Israel before it was actually declared a state. Massive immigration took place before and following the Holocaust, and of course we know that they were there for hundreds, thousands of years. Depending on the time in history, there may have been more, there may have been less. Most often they were persecuted and lived in fear for their lives. Seems to be a common theme for them...

[Maggyie]

The ironic thing is, if you read about the beginnings of modern Israel, you'll find out that Jewish terrorist organizations played a big role. Lots of terror bombings and assassinations. Google "Irgun" or "Haganah." More or less, the Palestinians learned it from the Israelis.

What can the Pope say except these people need Jesus? But that would only inflame the situation, although true.

[LadyOfSorrows]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1353388488' post='2513470']
The ironic thing is, if you read about the beginnings of modern Israel, you'll find out that Jewish terrorist organizations played a big role. Lots of terror bombings and assassinations. Google "Irgun" or "Haganah." More or less, the Palestinians learned it from the Israelis.

What can the Pope say except these people need Jesus? But that would only inflame the situation, although true.
[/quote]

double post

Edited November 20, 2012 by LadyOfSorrows

[LadyOfSorrows]

Also, I would agree. It would be interesting to see a statement from the Holy See. It seems like much of the world is silent right now...

[Gabriela]

grrr. double-post!

Edited November 20, 2012 by curiousing