Israel-hamas

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353302985' post='2512805']
But it seems to me that if people who [i]owned[/i] land were evicted by anyone, for any reason, those people would have every reason to be angry, and frankly they would not be wrong to try to [i]take their own property[/i] back.
[/quote]
I guess the question is: how long do property rights last, and how are they transmitted?

If I found out that my parents (we'll call them deceased) had owned land and been forced off of it, would I be right to try to take that back?
What if it was my grandparents? Great grandparents? Great great grandparents? Certainly there becomes a point when it is no longer reasonable to expect a right to that land, yes? I suppose the issue is finding where the line is to be drawn.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1353303142' post='2512806']
I guess the question is: how long do property rights last, and how are they transmitted?

If I found out that my parents (we'll call them deceased) had owned land and been forced off of it, would I be right to try to take that back?
What if it was my grandparents? Great grandparents? Great great grandparents? Certainly there becomes a point when it is no longer reasonable to expect a right to that land, yes? I suppose the issue is finding where the line is to be drawn.
[/quote]
Yeah, that is certainly relevant. Absolutely. I cannot honestly think of a consistent, non-arbitrary way of making that distinction.
The same issues, in a way, apply to the way the First Nations were often treated during the settling of North America. Different situation of course, but raises similar questions at times.

[kujo]

These people are fighting because they're fighting. I once described this conflict to a group of undergrads as the following: Palestinians throw rocks and Israelis respond by throwing bombs, thereby creating more rocks and rubble for the Palestinians to throw.

It's not about property rights. It's about centuries of political, social and religious indoctrination by people who are diametrically opposed to peace.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1353304114' post='2512813']
These people are fighting because they're fighting. I once described this conflict to a group of undergrads as the following: Palestinians throw rocks and Israelis respond by throwing bombs, thereby creating more rocks and rubble for the Palestinians to throw.

It's not about property rights. It's about centuries of political, social and religious indoctrination by people who are diametrically opposed to peace.
[/quote]
I think I would have to agree that property rights will not solve the problem. But for me, I cannot support anyone who is actively violating property rights, so it is relevant in an indirect sense to me. It dictates partially what causes I might, or more likely might not, be willing to support.

[kujo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353304256' post='2512816']
I think I would have to agree that property rights will not solve the problem. But for me, I cannot support anyone who is actively violating property rights, so it is relevant in an indirect sense to me. It dictates partially what causes I might, or more likely might not, be willing to support.
[/quote]

Just as a fact check, the areas in dispute here aren't part of the land parcel given to the Jews by the Brits. Those lands were subsequently seized and annexed into what is now Israel. How did that occur? Depends on what side you ask and what version of history you choose to believe.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1353304416' post='2512817']

Just as a fact check, the areas in dispute here aren't part of the land parcel given to the Jews by the Brits. Those lands were subsequently seized and annexed into what is now Israel. How did that occur? Depends on what side you ask and what version of history you choose to believe.
[/quote]
No doubt.

As often happens in international conflict, it seems like nobody is right. How do you solve a problem where everybody is in the wrong, anyway? Do you try to find out who was wronged more egregiously? Or who suffered more? Who knows.

I say the Swiss Guard seizes the entire area. Then Pope Benedict declares the SSPX regularized unilaterally, and offers them the entire area as a new diocese.

[kujo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353304575' post='2512819']
No doubt.

As often happens in international conflict, it seems like nobody is right. How do you solve a problem where everybody is in the wrong, anyway? Do you try to find out who was wronged more egregiously? Or who suffered more? Who knows.

I say the Swiss Guard seizes the entire area. Then Pope Benedict declares the SSPX regularized unilaterally, and offers them the entire area as a new diocese.
[/quote]

That would be great. It would unite the Jews AND the Muslims in opposition towards the Catholics.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353095419' post='2511403']
Yeah, you and millions of others.

It's hard to imagine how a win-win scenario could come about or even exist. Other countries (mostly Britan who occupied the area) forced the creation of Israel after the Holocaust because they'd been persecuted AND it was a convenient way to get Jews out of their countries. Palistinians were screwed and maltreated by these other Countries and now have to deal with Jews [b]who they consider as occupiers.[/b] The Israelis have often crossed the line in their treatment of Palistinians because of often justified fear, as well as purely selfish reasons. There is plenty of blame for inflicting intentional harm for all parties and we now have this never ending fued constantly fueled by retaltiation and aggression by Israelis, Palistinians, Arabs, and their allies who have their own alliances with these factions.

In addition to the realities of political and sociological conflicts, throw in the theological conflicts of Islam and the Jewish faiths. They'll be killing each other until one side is obliterated and forgotten by their allies.
[/quote]

Occupy Israel.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1353304863' post='2512820']
That would be great. It would unite the Jews AND the Muslims in opposition towards the Catholics.
[/quote]

There are all kinds of awful jokes I could make here, but I will make none of them.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[kujo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353305216' post='2512826']
There are all kinds of awful jokes I could make here, but I will make none of them.
[/quote]

This is where being friends on Facebook comes in handy

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1353305254' post='2512828']

This is where being friends on Facebook comes in handy
[/quote]
Iunno, sounds tedious...

[Gabriela]

At the outbreak of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Arab leaders urged Moslem Palestinians to vacate the newly declared State of Israel so that they would not be injured in the all-out war the Arabs had declared against Israel. The goal was to wipe out the Jews so that Moslems could occupy the entire land. Moslem Palestinians, confident of Arab success in the war, left their homes in droves.

But the Arabs were defeated, and when calm was restored, a great many homes formerly belonging to Moslems had been abandoned. For security reasons, the Jewish Israeli authorities strictly limited those Moslem Arabs who were allowed to return. The empty homes were therefore sold off to Jewish Israelis or given to new immigrants from Europe (Holocaust survivors) and Northern Africa (many of whom had been forced out of Africa by Arab persecution).

See here: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus"]http://en.wikipedia....estinian_exodus[/url]

Note that the Arab side of this story does not hold water, as there are, in fact, still many Arabs—both Moslem and Christian—living inside Israel today. These are the Arabs who did not heed the warning of Arab leaders at the outbreak of the 1948 War. These Arabs occupy whole towns (e.g., Nazareth, and many other towns in the North), and have never been forced out of their homes by Jewish Israelis. The same goes for Bedouins in the South and Druze (who, to Jewish Israelis, are just barely distinguishable from Arabs, yet distinguishable enough to hold positions in the IDF), who also live in the North (mostly around Haifa).

I dare say that, with over 1,000 rockets fired at Israel in 2012 alone (and the year is not yet over), it is hardly accurate to say that Palestinians only throw rocks.

Now, gentlemen, there are people dying on both sides of this war. If this thread descends into argument, they will lock it and we will have nowhere to discuss things civilly. More importantly, we will have nowhere to plead for prayers for this specific topic. So, please stop arguing, and start praying!

Edited November 19, 2012 by curiousing

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353307009' post='2512834']
Now, gentlemen, there are people dying on both sides of this war. If this thread descends into argument, they will lock it and we will have nowhere to discuss things civilly. More importantly, we will have nowhere to plead for prayers for this specific topic. So, please stop arguing, and start praying!
[/quote]
This is a pretty reasonable thread. I see no particular issues with what has been said thus far.

[Gabriela]

Regarding annexed lands: All of the lands not originally given to the Jews by the British Mandate were annexed as a result of Israeli victory in wars initiated by Arabs. Much of this land has been returned for the sake of guaranteeing peace (e.g., the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza, etc.). In spite of this, returning land has never, in fact, brought peace. Which is why Israelis flip out politically every time the government talks of giving away more land on the promise of peace.

Regarding property law in Israel: All land in Israel is owned by the Israeli government. When you buy a house, you lease the land that the house stands on for 50 years (I believe that, in some cases, you can lease it for 100). After the lease is up, you have to request a renewal of the lease. In other words, no Israeli (or non-Israeli) citizen owns property in Israel. The law is so designed for security reasons, i.e., to allow the Israeli government to seize land if necessary for security purposes.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353307211' post='2512835']
This is a pretty reasonable thread. I see no particular issues with what has been said thus far.
[/quote]

It looked to me on page 2 like it was starting to get aggressive, descending into sarcasm and all... I'm glad you see no issues. Hopefully the moderators won't, either!