Can't Find List Of Possible Signs Of "issues" In A Religio

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

There was a post made awhile back (but within the past year or two) that contained a list of possible signs that a religious Community might have "issues" or be less than healthy in some way. (I know the title was totally different than this, unfortunately.)

Since there is an active thread now about Sisters who leave a Community, I thought this might be a good time to re-post this list (if anyone can find it). I've heard about some cases where a Sister left because there really was a problem with the Community. It's not that the Sisters were evil or anything, it's just that they had gotten "off track."

I remember at least one VS'er who had left her Community and she was not the only Sister to do so, who said that if she had read this list BEFORE she entered, it might have raised a "red flag" and she might not have entered that Community.

We don't like to think about things like this, but Sisters are human beings as we all are, and sometimes Communities can become unhealthy. Most Communities are just fine, but unfortunately there are some that may be going through problems.

If anyone can find this list, will you post it? It might even be helpful to Flag it, so that it doesn't get "lost" again.

Thank-you in advance!!

Edited November 15, 2012 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[dominicansoul]

I remember that thread! I don't remember the title of it, though

[deusluxmea]

is this it?

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/97210-important-information-resources/

[dominicansoul]

I was thinking it was one written by a phatmasser who had went on a retreat with a community and found themselves freaking out on how "weird" the members were.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='deusluxmea' timestamp='1352997965' post='2510581']
is this it?

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/97210-important-information-resources/"]http://www.phatmass....tion-resources/[/url]
[/quote]

That's the one I was going to look up ... good job deusluxmea!

And yep Iggy -- I wished this had been posted sooner. TradMom posted it 6 months after I left -- and I wished I had read it much soon. It took me another year and a half to be able to name my experience for what it was.

Edited November 15, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[Cherie]

That is good (TradMom's posts always are!) but there was another one, more of a "checklist", that was even more recent. I think either TradMom or Lilllabettt posted it?

[deusluxmea]

She includes a checklist specifically for religious communities further down the thread- see post #12. I agree with you, CherieMadame!

[Cherie]

Yes I think perhaps Lilllabettt posted it? I'm not very good with the search function, perhaps someone else can find it?

[deusluxmea]

Another option?

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/106865-middle-of-the-road-communities/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/106865-middle-of-the-road-communities/[/url]

[Cherie]

Nope, that's not the one I'm remembering. Hmm, maybe I'll try a search if I can get to my actual computer (on a mobile device now).

[Maggyie]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104771-15-signs-of-trouble/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104771-15-signs-of-trouble/[/url]

I think this is the one

[Cherie]

That's the one!! Thank you, Maggie!!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote] Posted 26 April 2010 - 01:56 PM
I know that we sometimes see questions about new communities on Vocation Station. This list comes from the International Cultic Studies Association (cheery name, huh) and gives a run down of what canon lawyers look for as red-flags in a newer community.

Being a novice (literally) I was sometimes confused about what was 'normal' and what was 'iffy' in religious life. I think this list can be a very useful tool for discernment with ANY community, new or old.

[url="http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/vere_peter_whatcanonlawyerslookfor_0402.htm"][color=#0F72DA]full article[/color][/url]



Quote

[u][u][b][size=2]1.“Total” obedience to the pope[/size][/b][/u][/u]

Many will find this first warning sign surprising. As Catholics, are we not all called to obey the Holy Father? Indeed, we are. When a new association sincerely seeks to obey and follow the teachings of the Holy Father, canonists are for the most part satisfied the group is doing what Catholic groups ought to do.

Nevertheless, some new associations abuse Catholic sensibility in this regard. These groups cite “total obedience to the Holy Father” when what they really mean is partial obedience to selected teachings of the Holy Father, without embracing the entire papal message. Additionally, when challenged over their partial obedience, these groups will appeal to their “total” reliance upon the Holy Father in an attempt to bypass the authority of the diocesan bishop. This brings us to Fr. Morrisey’s second warning sign.

[u][u][b]2. No sense of belonging to the local church[/b][/u][/u]

As Catholics, we belong to the universal Church. Yet we also belong to the local church community, meaning a local parish and a local diocese. Even the Holy Father is not exempt in this regard; he is, after all, the Bishop of Rome and thus belongs to a local Roman Church. Thus the ministry and apostolate of any association should focus on the local church. If a new association or religious order has no sense of belonging to the local church, then this becomes cause for concern.

[u][b][u]3. Lack of true cooperation with diocesan authorities[/u][/b][/u]

To belong to the local church, one must cooperate with local diocesan authorities. After all, Christ instituted His Church as a hierarchy. Within this hierarchy, our Lord instituted the office of bishop to oversee a portion of Christ’s faithful. Thus the local bishop, and not a particular religious group or association, bears ultimate responsibility for the care of souls within a particular geographical location. If a new association refuses or impedes cooperation between itself and the local diocesan authorities, then its fidelity to the Church is questionable.

[u][u][b]4. Making use of lies and falsehoods to obtain approval[/b][/u][/u]

As Catholics, we concern ourselves with speaking the truth. After all, our Lord denounces Satan as the “Father of Lies.” So any new association should be truthful in how it presents itself to its members, Church authorities, and the outside world. This is not just a matter of basic honesty; any group or association that resorts to falsehoods to gain approval is likely concealing a deeper problem.

The Church understands that every association, particularly when the association is new, makes mistakes when engaging in ministry or apostolate. When an association is honest, however, these problems are easily identified and quickly corrected. This in turn increases the likelihood of the new association succeeding within the Church.

[u][b][u]5. Too soon an insistence on placing all goods in common[/u][/b][/u]

While the Church has a history of associations and religious orders in which members place all their goods in common, the decision to do so should come after a reasonable period of careful discernment. Placing one’s goods in common in not for everyone, and the consequences of such a decision are lifelong. Additionally, the potential for abuse by those who administer the common goods is great. Therefore, canonists frown upon any insistence by an association that its new or potential members place their goods in common.

Due to the fact that modern times see less stability in common life, with members sometimes opting to leave after a number of years, the most prudent handling of goods in common is to place them in trust until a member dies. That way, if the member leaves, the goods are available to meet his or her needs outside of the community.

[b][u][u]6. Claiming special revelations or messages leading to the founding of the group[/u][/u][/b]

Although this represents a warning sign, it is not absolute. The Church recognizes the presence of many legitimate apparitions and private revelations throughout her history. Yet not all alleged apparitions or special revelations turn out to be true. Therefore, the Church must further investigate any claims of special revelations or messages — particularly when they become the catalyst for founding a new association. If, however, a new association refuses to divulge or submit its alleged revelations or special messages to the Church, then this immediately calls into question the authenticity of both the association and the alleged apparition.

[u][u][b]7. Special status of the founder or foundress[/b][/u][/u]

Of course, the founder or foundress will always enjoy a special role in the founding of a new association or community. Nevertheless, in all other respects he or she should be a member just like everyone else. This means that he or she is similarly bound to the customs, disciplines, and constitutions of the community. If the founder or foundress demands special meals, special living quarters, special dispensations from the rules imposed upon other members of the community, or any other special treatment, then this is a clear warning sign. It is of special concern if the founder or foundress claims exemption from the requirements of Christian morality due to his or her status (see point 15 below).

[u][u][b]8. Special and severe penances imposed[/b][/u][/u]

As St. Thomas Aquinas teaches, virtue is found in the middle, between two extremes. Therefore, any penances imposed upon members of the community should be both moderate and reasonable. Special and severe penances are not signs of virtue — rather, they are signs of extremism.

[b][u][u]9. Multiplicity of devotions, without any doctrinal unity among them[/u][/u][/b]

The purpose of sacramentals and other devotions is to bring us closer to Christ and the sacraments. Hence sacramentals are not superstitions. A new association or community should insure that any special devotions or sacramentals unite its members to Christ, the sacraments, and the mission of the association. For example, praying three Hail Marys in front of the statue of St. Joseph while the Blessed Sacrament is exposed does not offer such unity. Eucharistic Adoration, Marian devotion and devotion to St. Joseph are all good in themselves, however, they should be offered either individually or collectively as devotion to the Holy Family. They should not be offered simultaneously.

[b][u][u]10. Promotion of “fringe” elements in the life of the Church[/u][/u][/b]

As previously mentioned, every association or organization within the Church should exist to serve the needs of Christ’s faithful. Therefore, canonists view any association that exists solely to serve fringe elements — whether these elements be special apparitions, private revelations, or extreme social or political agendas, etc. — with suspicion.

This is not to deny that extraordinary events may sometimes become the catalyst for a new association or religious order. For example, St. Francis of Assisi founded the Franciscans after receiving a locution from our Lord to “Rebuild My Church.” Nevertheless, St. Francis did not found the Franciscans with the intention of promoting his internal locution. Rather, the internal locution inspired St. Francis to found an order that would serve the Church.

[u][u][b]11. Special vows[/b][/u][/u]

Within the Church, one finds the three traditional vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Additional or special vows present numerous problems. Often, special vows are reduced to means through which superiors unduly control members of the community or association. The danger is particularly pointed where a special vow cannot be externally verified. Take “joy” for example; one can usually appeal to objective evidence that someone is not living a life of poverty, chastity and/or obedience, but as a feeling, “joy” is too subjective to be judged in an objective manner.

[u][u][b]12. Absolute secrecy imposed on members[/b][/u][/u]

While some discretion and privacy is necessary within any Church community or association, secrecy should never be absolute unless one is a confessor preserving the seal of confession. Therefore, any association or organization that imposes absolute secrecy upon its members should be approached with the utmost caution. Members should always be free to approach diocesan officials and the Holy See if certain problems arise within the community that are not dealt with in an adequate fashion. Similarly, since these associations exist to serve the Church, all members should be allowed to converse freely and honestly with members of the Church hierarchy when requested.

[u][u][b]13. Control over the choice of confessors and spiritual directors[/b][/u][/u]

Confession and spiritual direction concern the internal forum — that is, those things that are private to a person’s conscience. Within reasonable limits, a person should be free to choose his or her confessor and spiritual director. On the other hand, obedience to one’s superiors in carrying out an association’s apostolate or ministry concerns the external forum. In other words, the latter are public actions that can be externally verified.

The roles of confessor and spiritual director should never be confused with the role of superior. Nor should there even be the appearance of confusion. Of particular concern to canonists is when a superior imposes himself as confessor and/or spiritual director of a member under his charge. After all, a superior will have to make decisions about a member’s future — and in so doing there exists a strong temptation to make use of information gathered under the seal of confession.

[u][u][b]14. Serious discontent with the previous institute of which certain members were part[/b][/u][/u]

Like some of the other red flags presented, this warning sign is not absolute. Sometimes, a very good reason exists for a member’s discontent with his or her previous institute. Nevertheless, serious discontent with a previous institute should be carefully examined. In most cases, such discontent points to some deeper problems with the individual, particularly if he or she has a history of “conflict of personalities.”

[u][u][b]15. Any form of sexual misconduct as a basis[/b][/u][/u]

This warning sign is fairly self-explanatory. The Church’s teaching is clear when it comes to sexual morality. If sexual immorality is the basis for a new group or association, then the association ought to be avoided. Additionally, one should immediately report this to the competent Church authority.
Five Additional Warning Signs from the International Cultic Studies Association

[i]In addition to the fifteen warning signs presented by Fr. Morrisey, Dr. Michael Langone has assembled a list of thirteen criteria by which many cult experts judge a group to be a cult. Dr. Langone is a counseling psychologist and the Executive Director of the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA). He has spent nearly 30 years researching and writing about cults, and for 20 years has been the editor of the Cultic Studies Journal. The following five criteria have been adapted from Dr. Langone’s thirteen criteria and applied to the context of Catholic associations. Some canon lawyers find them useful when evaluating the legitimacy of a new association within the Church.[/i]

[u][u][b]1. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members[/b][/u][/u]

Of course every new association, if it wishes to grow, will seek to increase its membership. Such growth, however, should come because potential members identify with the mission or apostolate of the association. Additionally, members should only join after a reasonable period of discernment. Thus, any association whose main focus is to bring in new members, to the exclusion of other acts of apostolate or ministry, should be carefully examined.

[u][u][b]2. The group is preoccupied with making money[/b][/u][/u]

Like the previous criterion, there is nothing wrong per se with raising money for one’s association or apostolate. After all, even Christ and the Apostles used money. Nevertheless, money should be a means of carrying out legitimate ministry and apostolic work. Raising money should never be an end in itself. Additionally, the means employed in raising money should be honest and transparent.

[u][u][b]3. Elitism[/b][/u][/u]

The Catholic Church recognizes that by virtue of their baptism, a certain equality exists among Christ’s faithful, regardless of whether one belongs to the lay, religious, or clerical state. Additionally, among religious orders and newer forms of consecrated life, the Church recognizes different types of charisms. Some are active, in that they tend heavily toward active ministry and apostolic work. Others are contemplative, in that they tend more toward prayer and contemplation. Of course, you find everything in between. Therefore, any Church association that only recognizes vocations to its association is not thinking with the mind of the Church. Nor are those associations with a polarized mentality that divide their vocations from those of the rest of the Church.

[u][u][b]4. The leadership induces feeling of guilt in members to control them[/b][/u][/u]

One’s vocation within the Church should be freely chosen. Similarly, obedience is something a superior should inspire among those under his or her charge. While it sometimes happens that a superior must impose his or her will upon a particular member, obedience should never be coerced through illicit or improper means. Additionally, if a superior must constantly impose his will upon the majority of the membership through coercive means, then this proves problematical to the long-term health of the specific association or religious group.

[b][u][u]5. The group completely severs its members from the outside world[/u][/u][/b]

Granted, one must be careful here. After all, the Church has a long and honored tradition of cloistered and contemplative orders that sever themselves from the day-to-day activities of the outside world. Nevertheless, even those orders of the most strict observance encourage some forms of outside communication with friends, family and the world. Therefore, it is cause for concern when an association, particularly if the association is lay-based, encourages its members to completely sever ties with friends, family, and the outside world. Additionally, one should beware those associations that encourage or require their members to live and/or socialize only with other members of the same group or association. One should also beware if association or friendships with people outside of the group are encouraged only when they are used to further the goals of the group.

[/quote]

Thanks Maggie! The list quoted above (posted by Lillabettt) was EXACTLY the list I was thinking of! (I don't remember anything about posts between TradMom and another Phatmasser--this list above is the ONLY one I was thinking of.)

Since, as Lillabettt says, it can be hard to know as a postulant/novice what is "accepted practice" versus what is "hinky," I thought this list was very helpful.

For example, I know of one Phatmasser who was surprised that when first entered an Order as a postulant she had to immediately surrender all her possessions, even a gift of a Rosary from a priest friend. If she had read #5 on the first part of the list, this might have raised a "red flag." As it turned out, some other things struck her as "unusual" if not necessarily "hinky" and she eventually left the Order, not so much because of her concerns, although that was a part, but because she realized her sprituality didn't fit with that of the Community.

My guess is that only a very small number of Communities with which Phatmassers discern have any "issues." But, one problem is that sometimes a long established Community can be going through a "troubled" time, so simply joining a long-established Community is no guarantee.

Joining a religious Community will hopefully be for life, so, to me, it is better to at least know possible "red flags."

If others agree, I'd vote that this list be tagged so that it is easy to find again. Thank-you for finding it for me!!!!!!

Edited November 16, 2012 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1353095676' post='2511408']
Thanks Maggie! The list quoted above (posted by Lillabettt) was EXACTLY the list I was thinking of! (I don't remember anything about posts between TradMom and another Phatmasser--this list above is the ONLY one I was thinking of.)

Since, as Lillabettt says, it can be hard to know as a postulant/novice what is "accepted practice" versus what is "hinky," I thought this list was very helpful.

[b]For example, I know of one Phatmasser who was surprised that when first entered an Order as a postulant she had to immediately surrender all her possessions, even a gift of a Rosary from a priest friend.[/b] If she had read #5 on the first part of the list, this might have raised a "red flag." As it turned out, some other things struck her as "unusual" if not necessarily "hinky" and she eventually left the Order, not so much because of her concerns, although that was a part, but because she realized her sprituality didn't fit with that of the Community.

My guess is that only a very small number of Communities with which Phatmassers discern have any "issues." But, one problem is that sometimes a long established Community can be going through a "troubled" time, so simply joining a long-established Community is no guarantee.

Joining a religious Community will hopefully be for life, so, to me, it is better to at least know possible "red flags."

If others agree, I'd vote that this list be tagged so that it is easy to find again. Thank-you for finding it for me!!!!!!
[/quote]

Yeah, if this happened to me, I'd be alarmed. I can understand not bringing stuff that one would not need or was asked not to bring to the convent, but something spiritual like a Rosary should be allowed. I'd definitely ask questions about that one...

[cmaD2006]

@Mater ... you'd be surprised at what you may do or react given the right circumstance. The community may not tell you until you arrive - and even a live in may not reveal everything.

Besides at arrival you may be so convinced/conditioned that you are in God's will that you may just do as asked without questioning.

Finally some groups even "break" canon law per se. I knew I was allowed to keep my retirement acct intact until I reached retirement age where any funds would go to the community (things are different for solemn vows that certain religious take). The 2nd community started to try to convince me that I needed to empty out the acct - and I told them that I couldn't. I knew I was in the right but didn't let them know. Thank God that the 1st community taught me the truth.