Papist Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353523575' post='2514326'] [color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Well certainly the Allied powers are guilty of very grave transgressions of moral law in their waging of the Second World War. If one is sticking to Catholic principles, that conclusion is not deniable. It does not necessarily follow that American participation was necessarily unjust, so do not think I am saying that. [b]2312[/b] The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the [i]moral law during armed conflict[/i]. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties." [b][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm"]2313[/url][/b] Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide. [b]2314[/b] "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."[sup]110[/sup] A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.[/background][/size][/font][/color] [/quote] You see, that's the thing. The morality of participating in war is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1353524913' post='2514339'] what makes you say that? I don't think anyone here on this phorum indicated such a thing. When a country actually attacks another country, the right of self defense is obviously present. And indeed friends of the attacked country may morally come to the attacked country's aid, that is certainly a potentially moral war. On these grounds it is possible to see the First Gulf War as morally acceptable (if you ignore the recent WikiLeaks revelations that we actually indicated to Saddam that we were cool with him going into Kuwait behind closed doors only to attack him for doing so) The atomic bombs were not moral, no utilitarian argument for them holds any weight in a debate of Catholic morality. The most basic way to phrase just war theory is to say that all wars must be defensive last resorts that attempt to avoid civilian casualties. Iraq was not defensive, it was offensive; it was not a last resort, it was the culmination of a decade of a passive aggressive state of war and it was pushed for by the Bush administration who demanded the answers they wanted to hear from the intelligence community. That decade of sanctioning and no-fly zones over Iraq killed more than half a million children (Ms. Albright of the Clinton Admin said that was worth it), we were constantly aggressors in that war. Honestly, it is possible that had we not been so aggressive Saddam may have begun to become an actual threat (pretty unlikely given general Saudi-American hegemony in the Middle East and the balance of Iran, but let's pretend for a moment), at which point actual defensive action against his potential aggressive actions may have been morally justifiable; but it was not at that point, not even close to that point, when George Bush acted on manipulated intelligence (whether he personally sought for it to be manipulated or others in his administration and the intelligence community did so on their own is not entirely clear, many people ascribe to Dick Cheney a relatively large hand in the events of the Bush Administration and I would not be surprised if he played a big role in having the intelligence be manipulated). You can also argue from a Catholic morality point of view in favor of wars to end genocides or whatever, because the group that is being defended in a defensive war need not be officially a "state", it could be a people, but that was not happening in Iraq either. Pre-emptive strikes are not a good solution. Even a pre-emptive strike against Hitler would likely have ended badly... why do you think the Germans turned to such a mad man in the first place? Because the international community was humiliating them and utterly destroying them through the punitive Treaty of Versailles. If we had pre-emptively struck Hitler, it would likely have been a sort of First Gulf War, and decades of occupation later we'd have more of an enemy in the German people. pre-emptive strucks don't work, but that's not the only reason Catholic morality rightly rejects them: Catholic morality rejects them because they inherently non-defensive and when you become the instigator of a war, no matter what theories you either believed or concocted (and it is altogether more likely for bad men to concoct them when we accept the pre-emptive doctrine, they don't even need to fabricate a Gulf of Tonkin incident if we accept the Bush Doctrine, how convenient for the men who make profit on wars), you have lost the moral ground of it, and any hypothetical utilitarian arguments about what might have happened had you not acted remain just that: hypothetical, no one will ever know; it's like beating someone up because they looked at you funny and you thought they were going to punch you first--it is you who would get charged for assault, not the one who looked at you funny. [/quote] Just following the reasoning here. Which is, war=immoral => objective truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 there are objective principals. war is only justified when it is defensive, it is never justified when it is offensive. the doctrine of pre-emptive strikes has no basis in Catholic Just War theory, it is an abomination used to justify offensive wars and pretend that they are defensive, it is absolutely repugnant to Christian sensibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Ever hear the saying? "Sometimes perfection becomes the enemy of good." Ideological puritans hate that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1353525488' post='2514348'] Just following the reasoning here. Which is, war=immoral => objective truth. [/quote] not sure how you got that conclusion from what I said. defensive war is not immoral. it is tragic but can be just and righteous. offensive war is always immoral. that I will say unequivocally. indeed that's why the Bush Doctrine attempts to subvert the whole line of reasoning with the argument that it is a defense against a potential attack that may or may not occur. but it is a sickening subversion of good principals of just war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1353525551' post='2514352'] Ever hear the saying? "Sometimes perfection becomes the enemy of good." Ideological puritans hate that one. [/quote] In what way is this ideological purity? Why not engage the discussion instead of throwing out broad accusations? My position is quite nuanced, quite aware of the practicalities, and quite well-versed in the Catholic moral tradition of these things. Is it seriously ideological puritanism to simply ask that all wars be defensive? That they only be a last resort? If it is, then the Catholic Church must be an ideological puritan, because that is [i]absolutely[/i] her stance on this. indeed, the only Catholic argument I've seen in favor of pre-emptive strikes goes to great pains to put it within the context of defensive action, because they know that the Church is absolutely clear that war is only just when it is defensive. Edited November 21, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1353525551' post='2514352'] Ever hear the saying? "Sometimes perfection becomes the enemy of good." Ideological puritans hate that one. [/quote] I haven't adopted the principle that ideology is bad. I do maintain that what is evil cannot be made good because of its outcomes, even if they are good (for instance, rape, even if it produces a child who cures supercancer, would never be good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1353525648' post='2514355'] not sure how you got that conclusion from what I said. defensive war is not immoral. it is tragic but can be just and righteous. offensive war is always immoral. that I will say unequivocally. indeed that's why the Bush Doctrine attempts to subvert the whole line of reasoning with the argument that it is a defense against a potential attack that may or may not occur. but it is a sickening subversion of good principals of just war. [/quote] Not directed at you, nor interpreting anyone's post(s). Just how [u]I[/u] am understanding it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) hmm... well it was a reply to my post, so you can see the confusion... the Popes have some great quotes on these subjects, but there are certainly objective truths against which we can compare wars to debate whether they are just or not. no matter what, war is always a great tragedy and it is never desirable and must always be treated as a last resort, there is no wiggle room on that. participation in this thread is a penance for my snot-nosed 2003-2004 16 year old self who argued in favor of the Iraq war Edited November 21, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1353525239' post='2514342'] You see, that's the thing. The morality of participating in war is subjective. [/quote] I disagree. It may be difficult, even impossible to determine at a particular time with available information, but it is never subjective. [quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1353525551' post='2514352'] Ever hear the saying? "Sometimes perfection becomes the enemy of good." Ideological puritans hate that one. [/quote] That is why the Church is totally ok with utilitarianism, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Well, I replied to you b/c I thought yours was a reply to my reply, to which I replied. Ohhh forget this...I am going for a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I drank my last honey lager last night, and I am very glad of that because it was not doing anything at all for me. It was kind of a chore to get through. Sad story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1353526495' post='2514367'] I disagree. It may be difficult, even impossible to determine at a particular time with available information, but it is never subjective. That is why the Church is totally ok with utilitarianism, right? [/quote] So entering a war is unequivocally immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1353526767' post='2514371'] So entering a war is unequivocally immoral. [/quote] Please point out where I said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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