Should Communities Know That You Are Enquiring/applying To More Than O

[AccountDeleted]

Someone I know has applied to (and been accepted to) more than one community at a time, and she doesn't tell them about each other. I felt this was wrong and dishonest, and told her I thought she shouldn't apply to a new community until she has told the old one that she doesn't want them now, but I am curious as to how others feel about this.

I didn't include an option for 'not sure' or 'don't know' because I wanted to see some definite opinions here but if you really think the answer depends on the circumstances, perhaps you could give an example to support this opinion.

[Totally Franciscan]

I find it odd that someone would apply for entrance to two (or more) different communities. One would think that one is drawn to one community; otherwise, why would she have applied at all. Discerning with many communities is fine trying to find where God wants her, but applying should only be to one community. If that initial community does not accept the applicant, then discernment starts a fresh. That is what discerning is all about - finding that ONE community. Just my 2 cents.

[cmaD2006]

My personal opinion:

a) while you are discerning, you shouldn't need to tell other communities about each other.

b) by the time you are ready to apply, you should pretty much narrow it down to ONE.

c) I think it is nuts (insane) to actually apply to TWO. It's not college. It's not a job. It is as if you are telling two men "I will be engaged to you". No, no, no, no, no.

d) If you get accepted to both -- it is late. I can't imagine being that woman and having to tell one of the communities that you aren't entering. And I wouldn't dare tell them both "oh, I am undecided between two communities". Because if I was a vocation director and found out that a woman was hedging their bets per se, I would decide against the candidate. I want a candidate whose heart is set on being part of the community.

Edited November 14, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[AccountDeleted]

[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]To date, I know that she has applied to at least two (and most likely three or more) communities and been accepted to two for sure without telling either of them that she has been accepted to the other. She also told me that she can't enter the one she really wants because she still has (non student-loan) debts but another (third) community has recently sent her a check for the full amount (more than five thousand dollars) to pay off these debts so she can enter there and she asked for my advice as to whether she should deposit the check, and whether she should enter the community that sent her the money even though she really wants another community that has also accepted her. I told her she was being dishonest to all of them because none of them know about each other, and she should be more honest with them all, but she obviously got angry at my reply because she didn't bother to write back again.[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]So I was wondering if I was wrong to say what I did or not. I only gave my opinion because she asked for it- otherwise I wouldn't have gotten involved in what she is doing. I thought this poll might be a good way to get some opinions without getting specific.[/font][/size]

[EmilyAnn]

Speaking from my own experience, when I was on my live-in Mother Mistress asked me if I had or was discerning with other communities. If you are at en enquiring stage then you are likely to have more than one community and I don't think at that stage you necessarily need to tell each community that. I think as things progress one should be honest if one is still discerning with other communities because in a way in tells them a lot about the stage you are at.

If one is [i]applying[/i] to multiple communities then personally I would question if this is the time for them to be considering application at all. My instinct is that is this person doesn't have that "this is where God is calling me to" for one community then they're not really ready.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1352876398' post='2509770']
Someone I know has applied to (and been accepted to) more than one community at a time, and she doesn't tell them about each other. I felt this was wrong and dishonest, and told her I thought she shouldn't apply to a new community until she has told the old one that she doesn't want them now, but I am curious as to how others feel about this.

I didn't include an option for 'not sure' or 'don't know' because I wanted to see some definite opinions here but if you really think the answer depends on the circumstances, perhaps you could give an example to support this opinion.
[/quote]

My friend did this. I think she was trying very hard to find a place to fit in because she is over the age limit of so many orders (in her 50s). After she left an order because of health problems, she emailed two orders and was in contact with both at the same time. She was planning to go visit one and start aspirancy because they accepted her to start formation. However, another order, more traditional than the first, also accepted her to try her vocation. She ended up leaving the 2nd order. She never visited the first order she contacted after leaving. In fact, she wrote them off altogether. Now, she is back with the very first order she entered and is a 1st year novice.

I never told her but I thought it was kind of strange to contact so many communities. I think that it is very dangerous to become so serious with more than one because it's almost like you are saying, "I'll go to whichever one accepts me," instead of discerning what God wants. When I started the application process for the Carmelite Sisters DCJ back in 2009, I did not look at any other orders. Of course, I discerned that God was not calling me there so I started contacting communities again. Now that I am discerning and applying to a different order, I am very serious about not contacting other orders to ask about formation. In fact, one order that I recently contacted for a vocation day misunderstood me and thought I wanted to discern with them. I was very quick to correct them and decided that I did not want to attend (for more reasons than that). It feels like I'm cheating on my hopeful future community when I contact other orders and I get uncomfortable. Only if my hopeful community says "no" will I start looking again (which I hope doesn't happen, but you never know).

[emmaberry101]

I voted Yes, you should tell them about others in all three circumstances. The reason I did this was because, on my first visit to the Roswell Poor Clares, Mother asked if I had discerned with the Carmelites, as I was speaking about my love of St Therese and how much of an inspiration she was to me in my discernment. I answered honestly. On question two, the Roswell application asked if you were involved with any other religious community at the present time, then to list involvement in the past. This would include entrance and any serious type of discernment with a particular community in my book. I did not include the Carmelites in that because there was no serious discernment with a particular community. Edit: On further review it is fine to not tell communities early on that you are discerning with other communities, but if you are working with a competent VD, being open with them about this can really help you!

The third question is a given. You are dishonest if you are keeping that important information to yourself at that point.

So I guess I voted 'yes' because, from experience with my Sisters, I know that they care about the answers to these questions, and appreciate frank honesty early on. After experiencing the utter joy and consolation that comes with finding the community that God wants for you, it is hard to imagine looking at a religious vocation from such a business-minded approach. I pity your friend in that way, nunsense. Imagine thinking of a future-marital situation that way! "I'll see which guy proposes and go with that one." It sounds harsh, but it really just makes me sad. Everyone should be able to experience the joy and consolation that I experienced with my Sisters, just as everyone called to marriage deserves a Spouse whom they love, and the joy this relationship brings, especially that puppy love and then honeymoon period...and it is a shame that some don't. Unfortunately this seems to take place far more often for later vocations, and we as Catholics really need to change how these vocations are approached. There are no second-class vocations!

The problem is that anyone like nunsense's friend will have justified this to themselves against their initial good judgement/conscience, and it is hard to do any reasoning or convincing when that has happened.

Edited November 14, 2012 by emmaberry101

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1352878280' post='2509776']
[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]To date, I know that she has applied to at least two (and most likely three or more) communities and been accepted to two for sure without telling either of them that she has been accepted to the other. She also told me that she can't enter the one she really wants because she still has (non student-loan) debts but another (third) community has recently sent her a check for the full amount (more than five thousand dollars) to pay off these debts so she can enter there and she asked for my advice as to whether she should deposit the check, and whether she should enter the community that sent her the money even though she really wants another community that has also accepted her. I told her she was being dishonest to all of them because none of them know about each other, and she should be more honest with them all, but she obviously got angry at my reply because she didn't bother to write back again.[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]So I was wondering if I was wrong to say what I did or not. I only gave my opinion because she asked for it- otherwise I wouldn't have gotten involved in what she is doing. I thought this poll might be a good way to get some opinions without getting specific.[/font][/size]
[/quote]

I think you were just looking out for the welfare of your friend. It's not a good idea to go where you are accepted JUST because you are accepted. You have to discern whether or not you are called there. If you go there because of wanting to be accepted or to just start formation, you end up risking your vocation and it's dishonest to the community. She should wait to pay off her debt and THEN enter the community she feels the most called to.

If she's having trouble paying off her debt, she could always ask the community if they know of a way. When I applied to the Carmelite DCJ community back in 2009, the Provincial Superior and Novice Mistress offered to help me pay off my debt by giving me a job in their group home. Not only was I given the option to pay it back sooner, but I was able to spend time with them to see if I was really called there.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1352879574' post='2509778']

My friend did this. I think she was trying very hard to find a place to fit in because she is over the age limit of so many orders (in her 50s). After she left an order because of health problems, she emailed two orders and was in contact with both at the same time. She was planning to go visit one and start aspirancy because they accepted her to start formation. However, another order, more traditional than the first, also accepted her to try her vocation. She ended up leaving the 2nd order. She never visited the first order she contacted after leaving. In fact, she wrote them off altogether. Now, she is back with the very first order she entered and is a 1st year novice.

I never told her but I thought it was kind of strange to contact so many communities. I think that it is very dangerous to become so serious with more than one because it's almost like you are saying, "I'll go to whichever one accepts me," instead of discerning what God wants. When I started the application process for the Carmelite Sisters DCJ back in 2009, I did not look at any other orders. Of course, I discerned that God was not calling me there so I started contacting communities again. Now that I am discerning and applying to a different order, I am very serious about not contacting other orders to ask about formation. In fact, one order that I recently contacted for a vocation day misunderstood me and thought I wanted to discern with them. I was very quick to correct them and decided that I did not want to attend (for more reasons than that). It feels like I'm cheating on my hopeful future community when I contact other orders and I get uncomfortable. Only if my hopeful community says "no" will I start looking again (which I hope doesn't happen, but you never know).
[/quote]


This is more how I tend to look at things. I have discerned with a lot of communities, but I do it one at a time, a bit like dating. I wouldn't consider applying to more than one at a time though because that is like getting engaged. And to do it to more than two ??

I do understand casting the net wide because as an older discerner myself, I have had to look in places that I really didn't feel called to, thinking that maybe I was trying to do my will and not God's, but in the end it always came back down to where I felt most 'at home' and that was Carmel, and most especially Wolverhampton Carmel.

And I can also understand the confusion about the debt - if one community is offering to pay it off, then maybe it could look like that is God's will, but to get into a situation where two communities at the same time think I am going to enter there? That just seems wrong. And for one of them to send her a check for that much money means that they REALLY think she is going to enter there and that the debt is the only thing holding her back. How did it get to that point if she wants the other place??

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='emmaberry101' timestamp='1352879998' post='2509780']

The problem is that anyone like nunsense's friend will have justified this to themselves against their initial good judgement/conscience, and it is hard to do any reasoning or convincing when that has happened.
[/quote]

I think you are right there and that is probably why she cut off communication with me. She feels justified in whatshe is doing and thinks I am the one in the wrong for daring to try to correct her. Oh well. With this attitude, I doubt she will last long in any community, but it is a shame for the communities themselves, who have accepted her.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1352881673' post='2509786']
I think you are right there and that is probably why she cut off communication with me. She feels justified in whatshe is doing and thinks I am the one in the wrong for daring to try to correct her. Oh well. With this attitude, I doubt she will last long in any community, but it is a shame for the communities themselves, who have accepted her.
[/quote]

I hope that, if she decides to not enter the community that gave her the check, that she returns it to them. The Carmelites helped pay my airfare to the convent to work with them, but I was required to pay it back which I eventually did.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1352882714' post='2509789']

I hope that, if she decides to not enter the community that gave her the check, that she returns it to them. The Carmelites helped pay my airfare to the convent to work with them, but I was required to pay it back which I eventually did.
[/quote]

Well, one would hope she does anyway. To take it now would be under false pretences unless she enters there.

[petitpèlerin]

A check for more than $5000?! That should be the sign to her that she's far past the point where she should have chosen just one community. That community is clearly of the understanding that she fully intends to join them. She should not deposit the check unless she does intend to join them. Pardon my bluntness, but that's a no-brainer. If she's even considering otherwise, I question her sensibility.

If the community she really wants requires her debt to be paid off before entering, I would focus on that one, pay off the debt, and go for it. Frankly, $5,000 is not much. She could work, or fundraise, or look into one of those organizations that helps people in precisely her situation. Money is a terrible reason to choose a particular vocation (spouse or community).

Edited November 14, 2012 by petitpèlerin

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='petitpèlerin' timestamp='1352885064' post='2509793']
A check for more than $5000?! That should be the sign to her that she's far past the point where she should have chosen just one community. That community is clearly of the understanding that she fully intends to join them. She should not deposit the check unless she does intend to join them. Pardon my bluntness, but that's a no-brainer. If she's even considering otherwise, I question her sensibility.

If the community she really wants requires her debt to be paid off before entering, I would focus on that one, pay off the debt, and go for it. Frankly, $5,000 is not much. She could work, or fundraise, or look into one of those organizations that helps people in precisely her situation. Money is a terrible reason to choose a particular vocation (spouse or community).
[/quote]

Well, I did think it was very generous of the community and suggested that she either join them because of their kindness or at least let the other one (the one she really wants) to know that she has been offered this money because of her debts but that she would rather go to them, and see if they can help her at all. But the real problem to me is that she should have made the choice between these communities long before it got to this point and to have been honest with both of them from the start. Now I think she has confused herself and thinks that God is somehow speaking to her by the community offering her the money (and who am I to know otherwise?). Maybe this community would never have offered her the money if they knew that she really wanated to be somewhere else too.

I told her that money is NEVER the problem, as I have been so poor that I had to rely on the Food Bank just to eat! God can do the impossible so her debt isn't the real problem here, and maybe God is making her wait so she can see that she isn't being honest in her discerning. Let's all pray for her about this.

Edited November 14, 2012 by nunsense

[Gemma]

The Carthusians have it on their website that they are not impressed when a discerner writes and says they have written all of their monasteries. The Holy Ghost works on attraction, and of those monasteries, one should have followed the attraction to only one.

From a founder's POV, I much prefer that the discerner search as much as possible before coming to us. We are to be a hidden cul-de-sac in the world of the religious life, and all other avenues are to be closed before we will begin discernment with the person.

Even the Visitation nuns said to visit other monasteries. If one does not, then it really itches when one is inside and hasn't visited other charisms. After making a nun run myself, I understand this. If making a nun run, I advise one charism a day, and journal your impressions at the end of the day. When you find the right place, you will not want to leave.

Nunsense's friend really needs to listen to her attractions. A $5,000 check is a boon, but if not in the right place, and not being honest about other applications, this all will lead to great confusion and possible spiritual harm.

When writers make submissions, they are cautioned against submitting to more than one publisher at a time. Many publishers refuse simultaneous submissions. I should think the same would apply here.

I began with the Carthusians, and now I end with them. They say that if you don't have the vocation, "your cell will vomit you out." Same holds true. You get itchy feet and keep moving if you're not in the right place.

Blessings,
Gemma