Did The "pro-life" Movement Permanently Change Because Of Romn

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353180605' post='2511908']

Yes, absolutely I am selfish. I take that as a compliment.

I will not impose myself onto others, I will not force them to live my life. I respect that they are in control of their own lives, that they can exercise their own "free will" how they choose as long as it doesn't make society dangerous for me, or endanger myself or my loved ones. People can "sin" to their hearts content, it is not my concern. Not because I am indifferent, but because I know my place.
[/quote]

[southern california guy]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353226019' post='2512277']
That's not what I am saying.

A selfish person doesn't do these things through fear of getting caught, yes that is part of the story.

But it doesn't take a genius deep thinker to realise that a selfish person doesn't want other people to steal from them, murder them, rape them. Thus a selfish person wants a society where people don't do these things. Thus we want legal constraints and enforcement. We also understand that our own behavior influences society, the way society reacts to us and the way society behaves in general.


I don't live in America. I do not support USA interferring in other nations affairs.
[/quote]

I think that selfishness is the reason that we have stealing and crimes. Stealing is certainly not a selfless act. Somebody else has something that you want -- and you consider only your own desire and not the feelings or consequences that your actions are going to inflict on the person that you are stealing from.

I believe that modern society has formed because people want to be protected from stealing. In ancient times -- in China and fuedal Europe the wealthy man had to be able to protect and hold what he owned. He would hire other men to protect him. And because his wealth had protection he was able to proper and grow. City's would grow around the wealthy man and they would pay for his protection through taxes. In a sense, when we are paying taxes, we are paying for a government that will protect us.

My uncle died over a year ago and two of his brothers -- my uncles are the Executors. They are refusing to pay anything out and it appears that one of the uncles has taken almost the entire trust. The problem is that it would cost more to go after them legally than we could ever expect to get. I would call their actions selfish. They live in Ohio and they view the family in California with a great amount of jealousy. They feel that we don't deserve the money -- and of course they are very "good" Catholics..............

I think that it is easy to be selfish and rationalize. The Jesus Christ of the Bible certainly was not.

[stevil]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1353362917' post='2513158']
I think that selfishness is the reason that we have stealing and crimes.
[/quote]
Sometimes people steal and commit crimes because they are in desperate situations, their immediate need for food or drugs, overrides their long term need to have a caring and supporting society or the risks of being caught.
Others steal and commit crimes because they are immature and think they are invincible or they are rebelling against society.
Others may do it because they are self destructive.


Myself, I am selfish and I don't do it, because I don't need to and I don't want to get caught and face the punishment, and I want a society that doesn't steal from me. I am not self destructive, I look at the long term effects of my actions, I recognise that I live in a society,

I take responsibility for my actions. I can't simply pray for forgiveness.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353132695' post='2511700']


I think humans are inherently social beings and morality is figuring out as a community how to live together to the benefit of individuals as social beings.


[/quote]
Can you explain sexual morality amongst Athio/Agnostic people for me, please.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1353365963' post='2513188']
Can you explain sexual morality amongst Athio/Agnostic people for me, please.
[/quote]Yes. Not Moral Universalism.

Can you detail the Objective Moral Truths for sexuality amongst Theists?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1353365963' post='2513188']
Can you explain sexual morality amongst Athio/Agnostic people for me, please.
[/quote]
Impossible, as they are not monolithic, and have no dogma.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353439885' post='2513798']
Yes. Not Moral Universalism.

Can you detail the Objective Moral Truths for sexuality amongst Theists?
[/quote]
Jesus teaches us about sexual morality. There is something in scripture about understanding of scripture being open or closed to us depending on if God allows it or not. I guess our conscience confirms that this part of scripture is open to most of us. The priests who said that God allows them their sexual immorality maybe trying to fool themselves or more likely trying to turn their victims away from faith and are thus vicars of satan. Obviously the book is shut to them. The rest of us deal with our sexual weaknesses the best way we can. (except for knight of Christ) That's why we have confession.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1353440283' post='2513802']
Impossible, as they are not monolithic, and have no dogma.
[/quote]
That's what I thought! Hey you're almost as amesome as me!

[Socrates]

Romney lost, and has thus not permanently changed jack.

Even had Romney won the election, the pro-life movement would continue doing the same things it does under the Obama presidency, and every other presidency - work to change hearts and minds about the evil of abortion, and press for pro-life legislation and candidates wherever possible.

This was a lousy presidential race, in which pro-lifers could either abstain from voting (and thus have no effect on the election), or vote for the lesser of two evils to try to get the militantly pro-abortion Obama out of office. But, let's face it, in no election have either of the major candidates been ideal on this issue.

Romney lost, so let's leave him in the dust bin of history and move on. We have more pressing issues (like the reality of the Obamanation's pro-abortion regime) to deal with.

[Socrates]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353205738' post='2512089']
Selfish means doing what is in your own best interests.

Stealing and facing the consequence of either going to prison or being attacked by those you steal from, is not in a person's best interests.
[/quote]
Unless you happen to be the one in charge of determining who goes to prison, and can act above the law and steal and murder for your own gain (and personal "best interests"), as have countless dictators and tyrants through history (and today).

Or if you have sufficient confidence in your own power, influence, and ability to avoid the consequence of the law.

Amoralist "morality" still boils down to "might makes right."
Some dictators and mob bosses manage to live long, materially prosperous lives.
You have no coherent argument for why they should not do what they see to be in their own best interests.

And besides, even if someone chooses to act in a way that is ultimately self-destructive, who are you to say them nay?

If there is no objective morality, you might as well just let everyone do whatever they please, and let them live with the consequences.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1353454385' post='2513922']
Unless you happen to be the one in charge of determining who goes to prison, and can act above the law and steal and murder for your own gain (and personal "best interests"), as have countless dictators and tyrants through history (and today).

Or if you have sufficient confidence in your own power, influence, and ability to avoid the consequence of the law.

Amoralist "morality" still boils down to "might makes right."
Some dictators and mob bosses manage to live long, materially prosperous lives.
You have no coherent argument for why they should not do what they see to be in their own best interests.

And besides, even if someone chooses to act in a way that is ultimately self-destructive, who are you to say them nay?

If there is no objective morality, you might as well just let everyone do whatever they please, and let them live with the consequences.
[/quote]


If you are an Atheist you figure that religion was a creation of man. But you also have to consider why they chose certain "moral" principles -- marriage, monogamy, moderation in food and wine, charity towards others, etc. Does it lead to a happier life, regardless of your beliefs?

[stevil]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1353462611' post='2513971']
If you are an Atheist you figure that religion was a creation of man. But you also have to consider why they chose certain "moral" principles -- marriage, monogamy, moderation in food and wine, charity towards others, etc. Does it lead to a happier life, regardless of your beliefs?
[/quote]
I'm not sure if pairing up (marriage) and monogamy were religious ideas or not.

There are many other animals that mate for life.

But then again I'm not sure if humans are naturally monogamous

[Winchester]

So when do y'all start talking about 'utils'?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353477252' post='2514086']
I'm not sure if pairing up (marriage) and monogamy were religious ideas or not.

There are many other animals that mate for life.

But then again I'm not sure if humans are naturally monogamous
[/quote]

Does it matter if they are "religious" ideas? If we are taking an atheist approach then all religion was created by people -- and it can be viewed from a non-religious point of view. For instance why did people start to push monogamy and marriage?

I would argue that monogamy and marriage give a society stability. Children have fewer problems when they grow up with both a father and a mother. And by marriage I mean a "committed relationship". The religion and the traditions vary from culture to culture but is seems that all cultures and religions have "marriages".

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1353453821' post='2513918']
Romney lost, and has thus not permanently changed jack.


[/quote]
You really do put a lot of emphasis on national elections. That's sad.

[Socrates]

You really do put a lot of emphasis on national elections. That's sad.

 

I wasn't the guy making the grandiose claim that a politician "permanently changed" the pro-life movement simply by running in a national election.