Did The "pro-life" Movement Permanently Change Because Of Romn

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353004934' post='2510645']

Thus you show how poorly you understand the position of your opposition.
[/quote]

Even if that were so, which of course it is not, I do understand your position. But this does not invalidate the truth or the reality of the facts which I stated. I can understand why someone thinks airplanes are shooting stars. But that doesn't make their position valid or true. I understand that 'pro-choicers' believe with all their heart that they are compassionate and support freedom and liberty of those that would have an abortion. But that doesn't make them in actuality compassionate or lovers of freedom and liberty, when the facts prove otherwise.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353007755' post='2510675']
Even if that were so, which of course it is not, I do understand your position. But this does not invalidate the truth or the reality of the facts which I stated. I can understand why someone thinks airplanes are shooting stars. But that doesn't make their position valid or true. I understand that 'pro-choicers' believe with all their heart that they are compassionate and support freedom and liberty of those that would have an abortion. But that doesn't make them in actuality compassionate or lovers of freedom and liberty, [b]when the facts prove otherwise[/b].
[/quote]So tell me about these facts. How did you come to know them as truth? Through faith, superstition, religious decree, logic, reason, science, subjective evaluation, objective determination?

Can you explain and defend your facts with logic, reason, or science in addition or despite your faith?

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353007755' post='2510675']
Even if that were so, which of course it is not, I do understand your position.
[/quote]
You have shown no interest with regards to understanding my position. You simply want to tell me what my position is rather than ask me.

The only way to learn is to listen. I am not here to convince you that I am right and you are wrong. I merely represent a different position to that of your own. If you are to improve the world (in your opinion with regards to abortion), I feel you would benefit from talking to pro-choicers (not just me) to understand their position and concerns. Only once you understand will you have the potential to act towards a beneficial future. I feel your stance at the moment is all or nothing.

Your only recourse (given your current approach, current understanding) is via dictating law onto people, you can only do this via war and forcibly taking control of the population or via the democratic process of voting, however voting on a pure pro-life position of absolutely no abortion under any circumstances is not winning the election, thus you are getting nothing rather than all.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353007755' post='2510675']
I understand that 'pro-choicers' believe with all their heart that they are compassionate and support freedom and liberty of those that would have an abortion.
[/quote]
I don't necessarily agree with this. Personally I support choice because I don't think it is the government's business to control us on some people's perceived moral standards. I think society is proving that we are OK with abortion, so I don't think we need a law against it.
Of course that is just me, I suppose many people can empathise with potential parents whom have been told their fetus is severely disabled or that the pregnancy will likely kill the mother or that the pregnancy is the result of vicious rape or that the parents are too young to take on the responsibility of parenthood. I guess that most people struggle to empathise for a fetus, how can you put yourself in its shoes, what does it think? Is it worried about being aborted? Does it feel pain? Does it feel sorrow or sadness?
Society certainly is not revolting on behalf of the fetus, I pregnant women goes into a clinic and has an abortion and only a few extremely religious people are willing to sacrifice their own freedom in support of the fetus. Most bystanders wouldn't dream of assaulting the mother in defense of the fetus. I can only assume that most of us see this as a matter of concern for the parents and not society.

Although I do think many pro-choicers would be in support of elective alternatives, e.g. gay adoption, contraceptives, sex education etc. But it seems Catholic church are adamantly against all that as well.
The world isn't Catholic, if the Catholic church wants to make some ground then they need to make concessions. It doesn't mean that they have to agree with gay adoption, contraceptives, sex education etc its just accepting that these things are better than the alternative of abortion and that society will not accept an abstinence only no abortion position.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353009508' post='2510700']
So tell me about these facts. How did you come to know them as truth? Through faith, superstition, religious decree, logic, reason, science, subjective evaluation, objective determination?

Can you explain and defend your facts with logic, reason, or science in addition or despite your faith?
[/quote]

Science and reason. Science proves human life begins at conception and that this life is a unique and individual member of the human species. Human beings are persons.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353011949' post='2510736']

You have shown no interest with regards to understanding my position. You simply want to tell me what my position is rather than ask me.

The only way to learn is to listen. I am not here to convince you that I am right and you are wrong. I merely represent a different position to that of your own. If you are to improve the world (in your opinion with regards to abortion), I feel you would benefit from talking to pro-choicers (not just me) to understand their position and concerns. Only once you understand will you have the potential to act towards a beneficial future. I feel your stance at the moment is all or nothing.

Your only recourse (given your current approach, current understanding) is via dictating law onto people, you can only do this via war and forcibly taking control of the population or via the democratic process of voting, however voting on a pure pro-life position of absolutely no abortion under any circumstances is not winning the election, thus you are getting nothing rather than all.


I don't necessarily agree with this. Personally I support choice because I don't think it is the government's business to control us on some people's perceived moral standards. I think society is proving that we are OK with abortion, so I don't think we need a law against it.
Of course that is just me, I suppose many people can empathise with potential parents whom have been told their fetus is severely disabled or that the pregnancy will likely kill the mother or that the pregnancy is the result of vicious rape or that the parents are too young to take on the responsibility of parenthood. I guess that most people struggle to empathise for a fetus, how can you put yourself in its shoes, what does it think? Is it worried about being aborted? Does it feel pain? Does it feel sorrow or sadness?
Society certainly is not revolting on behalf of the fetus, I pregnant women goes into a clinic and has an abortion and only a few extremely religious people are willing to sacrifice their own freedom in support of the fetus. Most bystanders wouldn't dream of assaulting the mother in defense of the fetus. I can only assume that most of us see this as a matter of concern for the parents and not society.

Although I do think many pro-choicers would be in support of elective alternatives, e.g. gay adoption, contraceptives, sex education etc. But it seems Catholic church are adamantly against all that as well.
The world isn't Catholic, if the Catholic church wants to make some ground then they need to make concessions. It doesn't mean that they have to agree with gay adoption, contraceptives, sex education etc its just accepting that these things are better than the alternative of abortion and that society will not accept an abstinence only no abortion position.
[/quote]

I'll have to reply to most of this later. But again I know your position, it is in error. It is a way rationalize away reality, so you can feel good about babies being put to death.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353012194' post='2510739']
Science and reason. Science proves human life begins at conception and that this life is a unique and individual member of the human species. Human beings are persons.
[/quote]I agree with you, even as an atheist. Your conversation with people such as stevil, would be explaining the scientific basis that shows that once and egg is fertilized, it's a human, and it has begun the natual development to eventual death as a geriatric person. Most people who are pro-abortion justify it because they don't recognize the humanity of someone outside the womb.

Second would be discussing how to treat persons, regardless of their developmental state and why. Good luck with stevil's imaginary amorality. He refuses to acknowledge even rudimentary social behavior standards that are recognized as morals.

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353012740' post='2510741']
so you can feel good about babies being put to death.
[/quote]
If you think I get a feel good about babies being put to death then you have no understanding of my position.

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353013417' post='2510748']
I agree with you, even as an atheist. Your conversation with people such as stevil, would be explaining the scientific basis that shows that once and egg is fertilized, it's a human, and it has begun the natual development to eventual death as a geriatric person. Most people who are pro-abortion justify it because they don't recognize the humanity of someone outside the womb.

Second would be discussing how to treat persons, regardless of their developmental state and why. Good luck with stevil's imaginary amorality. He refuses to acknowledge even rudimentary social behavior standards that are recognized as morals.
[/quote]
Fetus's are humans, I absolutely agree.

Morality is an imagined concept. You cannot prove that it exists.

Social behaviour standards- Hmm, society is OK with abortion, there you have it, reality, if you disagree, then please prove otherwise.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353013745' post='2510751']
Fetus's are humans, I absolutely agree.

Morality is an imagined concept. You cannot prove that it exists.

Social behaviour standards- Hmm, society is OK with abortion, there you have it, reality, if you disagree, then please prove otherwise.
[/quote]I'm not a scientist, so I am unable to personally prove Oxygen is an element and that it exists. Do you believe in Oxygen? Why or why not?

[Nihil Obstat]

Just to make sure we are discussing all the different issues at hand:

There are quite a few philosophers, and to be clear I am not one of them, who are willing to make a case that 'being human' and 'being a person' are not identical concepts. So speaking generally, the body is a human organism from conception until death. But according to this theory, the human organism is not necessarily a person. For instance, one of the cases they will argue is a scenario in which someone has undergone irreversible brain damage. They are not conscious, have lost the capacity for consciousness, but (perhaps assisted by machines) their body persists as an organism. Some of them are willing to argue that in this case, while certainly it is still a human in question, the person in fact is no longer alive.
Obviously that applies to the time between conception and birth as well, to whatever extent they are willing to argue.

Anyway, as I said these are not my views. But it is a theory that is out there right now and has some measure of support among some philosophers.

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353013745' post='2510751']
Fetus's are humans, I absolutely agree.

Morality is an imagined concept. You cannot prove that it exists.

Social behaviour standards- Hmm, society is OK with abortion, there you have it, reality, if you disagree, then please prove otherwise.
[/quote]


some of society(other countries are not ok with abortion). at one time society was ok with slavery, oppression of blacks, feeding christians to lions, the attempted destruction of the Jewish people, seperate but equal, the slaughter of natuve americans.

so since there are no morals, none of these things were wrong correct?

[stevil]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1353049479' post='2511171']
some of society(other countries are not ok with abortion). at one time society was ok with slavery, oppression of blacks, feeding christians to lions, the attempted destruction of the Jewish people, seperate but equal, the slaughter of natuve americans.

so since there are no morals, none of these things were wrong correct?
[/quote]
Correct. No such thing as wrong and right in and of itself. The universe doesn't care if humans treat each other poorly. Do you care if ants hurt each other?

Edited November 16, 2012 by stevil

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353053161' post='2511174']

Correct. No such thing as wrong and right in and of itself. The universe doesn't care if humans treat each other poorly. Do you care if ants hurt each other?
[/quote]

See indifferentism... but will get back to you later today about your earlier post.

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353083723' post='2511284']
See indifferentism... but will get back to you later today about your earlier post.
[/quote]
My previous comment was about the universe and the concept of a universal morality system.

I'm not indifferent with regards to abortion, I will go out of my way to improve the chances of people having the choice to abort or not.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353088725' post='2511345']

My previous comment was about the universe and the concept of a universal morality system.

I'm not indifferent with regards to abortion, I will go out of my way to improve the chances of people having the choice to abort or not.
[/quote]

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The effect of supporting the choice to have an abortion or not, is either prejudice or indifferentism for the baby being aborted.

Edited November 16, 2012 by KnightofChrist