Regarding Leaving Communities

[Cherie]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1353326416' post='2512890']

I don't care how orthodox you and others think the community is on your entering, that is not enough to say everything must be ok.


Follow Christ without reserve, even if that means opening yourself to possibilities that you would have never considered in the past!
[/quote]

I would like to reiterate these two points, italicized, bolded, capitalized, underlined!

[ithinkjesusiscool]

Maybe the book written by a former Carthusian could help you but I forgot its name. Or the other book called Infinity of little hours. But I don't think these books should be taken too serious.

Maybe the book written by a former Carthusian could help you but I forgot its name. Or the other book called Infinity of little hours. But I don't think these books should be taken too serious.

[nikita92]

CarmenChristi- No worries! I think people on here are not taking what others explain/describe as VENTING! I Think reading about other peoples experiances can be very helpful and insightful! Sometimes reality can sting and one needs to be prepared to face all posibilites. Like others mentioned..do your homework.

[TheresaThoma]

Thank you all of you for sharing your stories. I think this helps keep us "newer" discerners from romanticizing religious life. Basically being able to go in (or out) "with our eyes wide open". It also helps us see that you can leave and have a happy fulfilling life.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='TheresaThoma' timestamp='1353429045' post='2513685']
Thank you all of you for sharing your stories. I think this helps keep us "newer" discerners from romanticizing religious life. Basically being able to go in (or out) "with our eyes wide open". It also helps us see that you can leave and have a happy fulfilling life.
[/quote]

I hesitated at first at sharing, because I realize that my experience is still poignant, and there's still a lot of emotions attached.

I tried to be honest about it ... because I wished I had known what to watch out for. It took me 3 years, 4 8-day silent retreats to get to the point that I am at now, where I know that in spite of my own failings and weaknesses the problem was not me but the unhealthiness of the community.

I don't want to discourage others from entering religious life -- I do want to encourage asking questions, and listening to that inner voice when it tells you that something is wrong. I don't know if that voice spoke up when I was discerning entering the 2nd community -- but I it did I certainly ignored it because I was "doing God's will" and that is a danger.

Finally the biggest sign that you are dealing with a healthy community, in my opinion, is the openness to dialogue. That communication -- if the community is willing to answer questions honestly then that is a very good sign.

To close -- I remember a visit I had with a religious community (I won't mention which one). I was there a week. And I had an important question pop up -- I saw the importance of obedience, but I was shocked at the "blind obedience" that was being presented (even though it wasn't stated that way) so I asked this question: "what if, in the bottom of your heart, you feel as though what is being asked of you is not correct?" I got a shocking response from the young sister -- "oh, that will never happen."

That response was the response that made me realize that I did not want to be there. Because if the young sister thought that it was impossible to be asked to do something that is wrong, then she's been indoctrinated into thinking so. I wanted to be free to choose to obey, not to be brainwashed into it.

I did the right thing then -- to not consider entering that particular group. However, in my zeal to find God's will for me in my life, I entered a community that I really did not know well and it was a mistake. But God has brought good out of that, and for that I am thankful.

[Julie de Sales]

I’ve always had this question: why even after making the solemn profession a nun can be expelled from the monastery? For example, at the Carmel of Lisieux where St Therese lived, a nun who developed a mental disease was sent away and I think she died in the world. Isn’t supposed that when you make your final vows you will die like a nun in your community, no matter what could happened to you? I know that, for example, if you are seriously sick you can go to hospital for better treatment, but this is different. Could someone explain it to me? Thanks a lot.

P.S. Sorry if this question was answered previously, but I haven’t found it.

[carmenchristi]

Back then things were different, I can't say I know much about how things worked in the past, but someone who develops a mental illness even before final vows cannot be dismissed.

Can. 689 §1. If there are just causes, the competent major superior, after having heard the council, can exclude a member from making a subsequent profession when the period of temporary profession has been completed.

§2. Physical or psychic illness, even contracted after profession, which in the judgment of experts renders the member mentioned in §1 unsuited to lead the life of the institute constitutes a cause for not admitting the member to renew profession or to make perpetual profession, unless the illness had been contracted through the negligence of the institute or through work performed in the institute.
§3. If, however, a religious becomes insane during the period of temporary vows, even though unable to make a new profession, the religious cannot be dismissed from the institute.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1353435948' post='2513744']
Back then things were different, I can't say I know much about how things worked in the past, but someone who develops a mental illness even before final vows cannot be dismissed.

Can. 689 §1. If there are just causes, the competent major superior, after having heard the council, can exclude a member from making a subsequent profession when the period of temporary profession has been completed.

§2. Physical or psychic illness, even contracted after profession, which in the judgment of experts renders the member mentioned in §1 unsuited to lead the life of the institute constitutes a cause for not admitting the member to renew profession or to make perpetual profession, unless the illness had been contracted through the negligence of the institute or through work performed in the institute.
§3. If, however, a religious becomes insane during the period of temporary vows, even though unable to make a new profession, the religious cannot be dismissed from the institute.
[/quote]

But certainly a Sister who developed a mental illness would be transferred to a facility which could give her the necessary treatment and professional help?

It occurred to me, btw, when cmariadiaz was describing her experiences that the unnamed community which demanded "blind obedience" was behaving exactly in the manner of a cult. Just my opinion...

[carmenchristi]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1353505091' post='2514193']


But certainly a Sister who developed a mental illness would be transferred to a facility which could give her the necessary treatment and professional help?

It occurred to me, btw, when cmariadiaz was describing her experiences that the unnamed community which demanded "blind obedience" was behaving exactly in the manner of a cult. Just my opinion...
[/quote]
Yes, I believe this would be the case. I think the point that the CJC is getting at is that the person can't be kicked out to fend for him/herself. The community would be responsible for the person even if she had to be placed in a hospital.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1353505091' post='2514193']
It occurred to me, btw, when cmariadiaz was describing her experiences that the unnamed community which demanded "blind obedience" was behaving exactly in the manner of a cult. Just my opinion...
[/quote]

I do believe that the unnamed community I mentioned is a cult, but the way I rather say it is that it has "cultlike characteristics."

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1353511898' post='2514216']
Yes, I believe this would be the case. I think the point that the CJC is getting at is that the person can't be kicked out to fend for him/herself. The community would be responsible for the person even if she had to be placed in a hospital.
[/quote]


That is true -- although I do know about a new foundation (which no longer exists) that were NOT going to take final vows, but were expected to renew them yearly.

In essence, I could see that this new foundation would not have the same protections that a community that has final vows. Why? Because, for example -- if a serious illness develops or if mental illness (not insanity) develops that is not deemed "the community's fault" then the community is free to not allow the member to renew vows. I read into it this way -- that particular new foundation was being designed such that if a member becomes too much of a burden they were free canonically to let them go. Voila -- no need to provide care into the elder years.

Moral of the story -- it is important to understand what you are getting into, ESPECIALLY with new communities. There are probably communities blossoming out there that are technically "outside the box" with respect to the protections offered by canon law, and as a discerner that needs to seriously be kept in mind. Canon law is there for a reason.

Edited November 21, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[beatitude]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1353505091' post='2514193']

But certainly a Sister who developed a mental illness would be transferred to a facility which could give her the necessary treatment and professional help?

[/quote]

I know a Carmelite nun who has suffered from severe depression for most of her life and has been very lovingly supported by her community. She never needed to go to hospital, but at one point she was taken to another monastery for a rest and a change of scene. I thought that was a very thoughtful arrangement on the part of her prioress.

In Sister Faith's monastery there is a nun who suffered from anorexia after a history of childhood sexual abuse, and she did need to leave the community to go to hospital. Again, her sisters were supportive, and they often came to visit her and so on - she hadn't really 'left' the community, she was just a sister who needed to be outside enclosure for a time. She is still with the community now, recovered, and she has written a book about her experiences, [i]The Silent Struggle[/i].

[carmenchristi]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1353514485' post='2514247']
There are probably communities blossoming out there that are technically "outside the box" with respect to the protections offered by canon law, and as a discerner that needs to seriously be kept in mind. Canon law is there for a reason.
[/quote]
Yes. I mentioned before and will reiterate that it is extremely important to know the pertinent section of canon law VERY well. In the community I was with the sisters were not allowed to have access to the CJC. This of course wasn't explicit, but it was always a touchy subject. The sisters who needed to study it for school were expected to return the Code to its untouchable place in the superior's library.
It is one major key to understanding what is normal and expected and what is strange or erroneous.

[carmenchristi]

I would also highly reccommend the instruction on the service of authority and obedience. You can find it here. Very important document for understanding normal and not normal. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccscrlife/documents/rc_con_ccscrlife_doc_20080511_autorita-obbedienza_en.html

[Cherie]

And I would say, for those discerning religious life, please do take heed. Don't just think, "Oh, that's a good idea, maybe," and then not read them. Particularly if you are entering a newer community, you really SHOULD read up on canon law and the link carmenchristi provided above. It will help you understand what is normal and what is not, and I think that is important to know BEFORE entering. Like carmenchristi said, it doesn't matter how "sure" you or anyone else is that they're an orthodox community. Plenty of orthodox communities, particularly new ones, have some serious, unhealthy problems.