Regarding Leaving Communities

[cmaD2006]

Actually re: dowry. Yes -- it is supposed to be returned. However, the money that I arrived with in Argentina was not returned to me when I left. In fact -- no accounting on how it was spent.

It just adds to a really bad experience that I lived through. I'm thankful .... but I would never wish that upon anyone, even my worst enemy.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1352871674' post='2509743']
Actually re: dowry. Yes -- it is supposed to be returned. However, the money that I arrived with in Argentina was not returned to me when I left. In fact -- no accounting on how it was spent.

It just adds to a really bad experience that I lived through. I'm thankful .... but I would never wish that upon anyone, even my worst enemy.
[/quote]



Well, maybe my worst enemy!

My worst financial experience wasn't with an established community but a new one - I left penniless and homeless becuase I trusted what I was told. At least when Kirk Edge sent me home, they saw me right with airfare and some cash to make sure I wouldn't starve. I am grateful to them for that act of charity. It reminded me a little of The Nun's Story (the book ending). She was looking for some sign of charity in her exit but couldn't find it until she noticed that they had included a nurse's veil in the clothing for her to wear. This covered her hair and gave her a sense of identity - and she appreciated that someone had been thoughtful enough to do it. they didn't show this in the movie.

[Cherie]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352852181' post='2509513']
Maximillion,

Thank you for your sharing; it couldn't have been easy.... either at the time, or even to share with us.

Having said what I did, I also want to share this; every year we get people who try their vocations in my Secular order. Every one of them comes with the best of good will and eagerness... and a certain percentage will give the life a try (with full intention of going all the way....) and find that God wants something different. I know I always do everything in my power to help those who rrealize that God is not calling them to be with us to have a plan for what God wants next... what they learned, what they need that we didn't offer... what they don't need that we do require. That is just good formation work...

I think communities today FOR THE MOST PART are much better about helping people make the transition in and out. And I think the world and our families and friends are more open to people who realize God wants something different.

I have written as PMs to some details of my own decision, and I don't want to discuss the whole thing on line. BUT I will say this; I think the story of St. Francis (especially as described in the beautiful book [i]The Perfect Joy of St. Francis[/i]) gave me the inspiration to really evaluate what God did -- and did not -- want from and for me. I think I had pre-determined that the ONLY way I could see living my life out for Him was as a consecrated religious... and I wanted a very traditional community. And found one. And loved many things about it. But I realized the longer I stayed that the structure was not a good fit for me. My body was getting tenser and tenser. I was more and more unsure about the style of the community... even though I had NOT been surprised by what I found--it was exactly what I had expected. What was a surprise for ME was that I couldn't live that lifestyle. It was not a good fit for me... and no matter how hard I tried, it was less and less do-able all the time.

That is probably why the retelling of the story of St. Francis volunteering to go off to war in the wake of a dream.... a dream in which he saw armor and swords and all manner of soldierly paraphenalia... and a young girl telling him that these were for him and his followers... of COURSE he ran off to join the army! Of course he believed tht God was telling him to join the military campaign that was being organized! The problem was, it wasn't what God wanted from him. And so a few days later, when the same young girl from the dream re-surfaced in his dream and asked, "Which is better... to follow the servant or the master?" Francis responde, 'The Master'... She then said, "you have misunderstood the dream; go back." Even though he knew he would face contempt and ridicule, Francis returned to Assisi... because he knew he had not NOT heard God's call... he had misunderstood. And he needed to go where God was leading him.

As I prayed over that story, I too realized that I had misunderstood what God wanted from me. It wasn't that I hadn't HEARD him; I had misunderstood what He wanted. And when both my superiors and I prayed about it, we realized that that was exactly going on. I had to return and pick up where I had left off... recapture what God really did want from me. Was it easy? No. Would I go back... probably not because now I udnerstand the whys.... and what God actually had in mind... and it is better. Not easy, but better.

So.... I will say to all of you who feel God calling, don't be afraid to respond in love. Listen carefully, and be sure you are listening to Him, not just to your own desires and hopes. But trust that The One who is pure love and wisdom Knows what is best and that it will work out in the end.

My 2 cents.
[/quote]

Thank you for sharing! I see a bit of my own story in what you describe.

I firmly believe God wanted me to be in the convent for the time that I was, however, despite my belief that God never gave me a religious vocation in the first place...it shaped me into the woman I am. I entered immediately after high school, and I was so impressionable and easily influenced. I truly think that, despite my perceived "firmness" in my Faith, I would have lost my soul if I had gone to college first. I know myself. It would have happened. I praise God for having seen fit to prevent me from losing my Faith; why me? Why not one of my siblings or parents instead (all of whom are no longer practicing Catholics, or practicing anything)? It's very humbling.

Sometimes I wonder: five years? That's unusually long for someone who was never really sure. But if I hadn't left at exactly the moment I did, I never would have met my husband. And all that time I was there, God was shaping and forming me; those difficulties and dysfunction I experienced there helped me become a stronger, more prudent, more wise person, up to the second Sister left me at the hotel where I met up with my mother.

I can't speak for other people who have been in a similar situation, but I know that at least for me, I really do believe God wanted me there even though He didn't want me to be a religious. God's ways are mysterious, and maybe it all happened that way because I didn't respond well enough to Him at some point in time during my discernment, so He had to pull a "drastic measure" in order for me to learn what I needed to...but all I know is that I'm grateful for the experiences in the convent (despite many of them being painful) and I am now living safe in the harbor of His Will for me.

[MarieLynn]

When I left my community, I left dressed in some secular clothes that the order had found for me, a few personal possessions, and my "nun shoes".

My parents had to repay the community the money for my airfare home.

I 'disappeared' after Mass, while the community was at breakfast, and after changing out of my Habit went down to the Visitors Parlour where I was given a light breakfast. I was ushered out a side door, given a warning about 'throwing away my vocation' and "I would never be "called" again", and was driven to the Airport by the gardener/handyman.

It is very different now, I realise, but back then it was soul destroying.!!

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='MarieLynn' timestamp='1352925534' post='2509987']
When I left my community, I left dressed in some secular clothes that the order had found for me, a few personal possessions, and my "nun shoes".

My parents had to repay the community the money for my airfare home.

I 'disappeared' after Mass, while the community was at breakfast, and after changing out of my Habit went down to the Visitors Parlour where I was given a light breakfast. I was ushered out a side door, given a warning about 'throwing away my vocation' and "I would never be "called" again", and was driven to the Airport by the gardener/handyman.

It is very different now, I realise, but back then it was soul destroying.!!
[/quote]

I cannot understand why a community would say that. I think they did more harm than good. If a person truly did not feel called to religious life and felt "stuck" for fear of "throwing away her vocation," she would be miserable. God gave us free will and we all need to respect that and be merciful. I'm sorry to hear that any woman was told they were "never going to be called again." That's tantamount to saying, "Well, you messed it all up. God will never love you again because you didn't remain a nun."

Edited November 14, 2012 by MaterMisericordiae

[AnneLine]

Mater, I think this WAS the custom up until fairly recently... and still exists in places. The rationale seems to be that if the sisters (especially the other novices and postulants) sees someone leave, it might unsettle them in their own vocations. That is also the rationale behind not letting the others know you are leaving/being asked to leave... not saying goodbye.... and not encouraging those who have left to stay in contact with the community. I don't agree with it, but it is the rationalle.

More often now, the sister will be given a chance to say goodbye, and often they are allowed to stay in contact with the other sisters. I think we have all realized that we are mature enough to know God does different things with different people. I sure hope so....

When I left (and this was in the mid 1980s) I was NOT allowed to say anything to any of the sisters, although I requested, and was granted, an opportunity to speak with the Provincial about my decision. She was very kind, and we processed what had made me come to this decision... and she agreed with the rationale. She also permitted me to take a few items that seemed appropriate for me to take into my new life, and I was grateful to her to have those things (and I still have them.). She indicated it would probably be a few days, and I said I had no problem with that, and agreed to her condition that I not say anything to anyone.

So, I was very surprised when, about an hour later, I was pulled even out of the morning's classes (left my binder and pen open on the classroom desk when I was called out of the room, as a matter of fact...) I was floored when they told me that I would be leaving righw away. I guess the superiors were concerned I might say something if they left me in the 'general population,' so I was told to call my mother that I would be returning that day and must be met, and then that I was to stay in our cell and pack.

They brought me meals... they were nice, but it was pretty clear I was no longer considered 'one of them'. When my stuff was packed and it was time for me to change into my lay people's clothes, I had a bit of a flashback to [i]The Nun's Story,[/i] because they had me go to a guest room in the laypeople's area, where they had set up my suitcase with my lay clothes, an ironing board and iron (so I could iron my lay clothes), and told to wait until they came for me and be prepared to be whisked out to a waiting car.

It was confession day, and I would have loved to have gone, but it was not offered. I could see the others heading off to go... and it was pretty lonely just waiting. I prayed for them, and I wish I could have told them how peaceful I was... and how much I realized being with them had been part of God's providence for me.... The sisters who took me to the airport were kind, but there was obviously a bit of a distance. And I got on the plane and returned home to a very astonished mother.... It had been quite a day.

One other thought... about 3 weeks earlier, one of the novices in the class ahead of me had left. We were not told until she had left, and then we were simply told by the postulant mistress that she had some news for us that would possibly be difficult for us, and that it was something we would hear from time to time as we lived in the community. She then said that the sisters and Sr. P had discerned that she did not have a vocation, and that she had returned to her home. And that there was to be NO discussion of it in the community. And that if we had a concern, we should talk it over with the mistress. She also told us that Sister was very much at peace, and knew this was God's will for her. I remember thinking at the time, 'Respectfully, Sister, I sincerely doubt that it was G[i]od's [/i]will or that she was that peaceful...," but of course I didn't say that. However, I have pondered imy reaction since my leaveing, because I know that they said roughly the same thing about me.... and that it was 100% true.... So.... I no longer judge what was said regarding Sister P. Sometimes... I guess it really is like that.

I've worked with dozens of people who have left communities in recent years. I think the vast majority have a great relief becaues they realize it just wasn't right for them. But for some, it is very tough.... and for many the adjustbment back in the world is really tough. Be there for your friends who come out, but let them make the moves..... because they may not be ready to talk for quite a while... because they may not know why they left. But make it clear you love them, are there to help, and that you won't pry. They will be grateful even if they don't take you up on the offer of help.....

Edited November 14, 2012 by AnneLine

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='MarieLynn' timestamp='1352925534' post='2509987']
When I left my community, I left dressed in some secular clothes that the order had found for me, a few personal possessions, and my "nun shoes".

My parents had to repay the community the money for my airfare home.

I 'disappeared' after Mass, while the community was at breakfast, and after changing out of my Habit went down to the Visitors Parlour where I was given a light breakfast. I was ushered out a side door, given a warning about 'throwing away my vocation' and "I would never be "called" again", and was driven to the Airport by the gardener/handyman.

It is very different now, I realise, but back then it was soul destroying.!!
[/quote]

I went clothes shopping with a teen who I had tutored to pass her english exams. I had no secular clothes (the community had taken them and gotten rid of all of it).

In my circumstance, I let the laity in the community know that I was leaving, and they threw a going-away party. I even attended Mass the day I was leaving in lay clothes (that was awkward). In a friend's case, she was a novice and basically just left (without saying bye to anyone). In fact -- they did not do her immigration paperwork, and she had to pay a fine to exit the country; a fine that a stranger paid because she did not have the money (nor was she given the money by the community). She felt quite hurt at how her leaving was handled.

Since leaving, I really haven't been contacted by the community. A letter that I wrote to the community went unacknowledged.

Soul-destroying is a good term to describe what my experience was like (and potentially vocation-destroying as well). But again -- this is now part of me, and has made me stronger for it.

Edited November 14, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[AnneLine]

Lost my internet for a few mins, so wasn't able to fix typos. Sorry!

MarieLynn and CMaria, I am so sorry it was such a hard transition for you. I don't think it should have had to have been. But I think sometimes in God's providence it is... and He knows what he is doing. But it is very much a school of hard knocks...

If it would help to talk or correspond a bit, you know how to PM me.... .and I would hold anything in confidence...even that you had contacted me..... same with all the rest of you.

I hope we haven't scared anyone from discerning by this discussion.... one of the big strengths of PM I think is that the tough questions get asked and answered. No one need to feel that they have no where to turn when they leave. I was blessed to have known one of my professors had been in religious life, and that I could reach out to him..... having a chance to process this with another 'veteran' is worth its weight in gold, in my experience.

I will hold you both in my heart and in my prayer in a special place today... along with all the rest of you who have left and may still carry some hurt in your heart......

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352930766' post='2510038']
Lost my internet for a few mins, so wasn't able to fix typos. Sorry!

MarieLynn and CMaria, I am so sorry it was such a hard transition for you. I don't think it should have had to have been. But I think sometimes in God's providence it is... and He knows what he is doing. But it is very much a school of hard knocks...

If it would help to talk or correspond a bit, you know how to PM me.... .and I would hold anything in confidence...even that you had contacted me..... same with all the rest of you.

I hope we haven't scared anyone from discerning by this discussion.... one of the big strengths of PM I think is that the tough questions get asked and answered. No one need to feel that they have no where to turn when they leave. I was blessed to have known one of my professors had been in religious life, and that I could reach out to him..... having a chance to process this with another 'veteran' is worth its weight in gold, in my experience.

I will hold you both in my heart and in my prayer in a special place today... along with all the rest of you who have left and may still carry some hurt in your heart......
[/quote]

AnneLine -- thanks for the offer. I've processed it a lot, and I've come to some clear conclusions about the community. Not every community is healthy.

I hesitated posting because my experience is on one end of the extremes.

To the original poster I still say that these experiences can't really say what will happen. Basically you have to take a risk and enter. If I hadn't entered the 1st community, I wouldn't have had a good experience to balance the bad. And shoot -- I wouldn't have had a loving group of sisters to hold me while I started processing the 2nd experience (and to help confirm what I couldn't see at the time -- that the 2nd community was bad).

[Cherie]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352927646' post='2509998']
Mater, I think this WAS the custom up until fairly recently... and still exists in places. The rationale seems to be that if the sisters (especially the other novices and postulants) sees someone leave, it might unsettle them in their own vocations. That is also the rationale behind not letting the others know you are leaving/being asked to leave... not saying goodbye.... and not encouraging those who have left to stay in contact with the community. I don't agree with it, but it is the rationalle.
[/quote]

Yes, it is still done that way by some communities. I was not allowed to say goodbye to anyone or even let them know I was leaving, nor were they allowed to see me leave. This was in 2008. It was unfortunate, but that's the way they decided to do it.

The Sister who entered the same day as me left a few months before I did; she was simply gone one morning. We had been close, having gone through all we had together, and it was horrible not having been able to say goodbye or even having any inkling she was thinking of leaving. But it worked out for the best, because her leaving is what finally gave me the courage to confront my lack of a vocation and finally make the hardest decision I've ever made, which was to leave.

[BarbTherese]

I had a similar experience as CherieMadam. It seems to me that saying goodbye to a fellow sister would be probably just as unsettling as to suddenly find her missing.
I think it would be appropriate to ask before entering what process is involved if one decided to leave.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[arfink]

Leaving a religious community or seminary or what have you is really hard. I know that first hand as well, from when I left seminary. It's often handled very badly both by the person leaving and the community. It happens. Some places are worse about it than others. The seminary I was at had a bad track record for that, and I know several men who wound up very deeply wounded leaving that particular place. There was no preparation for leaving like there was for going in, and you could see the seminary was leaving these guys in a world of hurt, emotionally, educationally, and financially.

Was it a risk to enter seminary? Yes. Did I know it was a risk going in? Yes. Would I do it again? That I don't know.

A vocation is a tricky thing, and I'm sure it's possible to "wreck" one. But I don't believe the Lord's will is deterministic. He is outside of time in ways we cannot fathom because we are inside it. At all times, and in every moment, He is there. In every decision we have the ability to love and to serve or not to do so. The decisions that I made which led me to seminary were the best fit I could find at the time for following His will, and right now my conscience leads me to believe that I would have a harder time loving and serving the Lord if I go back to a seminary. That's what discernment is largely about, from my perspective.

Edited November 15, 2012 by arfink

[Cherie]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1352951104' post='2510313']
It seems to me that saying goodbye to a fellow sister would be probably just as unsettling as to suddenly find her missing.
[/quote]

This is why I don't really hold it against the community; any way you do it, it's either awkward, or unsettling, etc. I would have preferred at least having permission to tell the Sisters I was closest to privately, but that wasn't allowed. And honestly, leaving is hard for all involved, no matter how you do it. That's why one enters with the [i]intention[/i] of persevering, I suppose!

[MarieLynn]

My experience dated back to 1969, when things were quite different to how they are today in many communities.
Sisters who "went out" were regarded as failures. Before I left, when one of the group disappeared and we were told that "Sister X has returned to the world", Mother also added a comment about the Sister, such as - "she did not have the generosity to continue in her true vocation". I thought that bit was quite unnecessary. I wonder what was said about me? .

I was reminded that I was under strict obedience not to reveal to anyone that I was leaving, and Mother also told me that I would never be permitted to return, should I have a change of heart, nor would I be permitted to enter another Order.

When I returned to my hometown, the Order that I had been part of for 6 yrs, refused any contact, and quite literally, I was disowned.

Thankfully, in the majority of cases that mind-set has ceased to exist, and sisters who return home these days, are given as much help as they need, both practical and spiritual to enable them to get back on their feet.

I would hate anyone to be put off by my experiences, but in the 'bad old days', and I say that with my tongue in cheek, that was the way it was. It depended on the community and how they dealt with sisters who wanted to leave for whatever reason, as to how the Sister was treated at the time.

I am no longer hurt, or angry, as I once was. Now I look back and say I am a stronger person having been through it all. !!!

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1352953730' post='2510345']
This is why I don't really hold it against the community; any way you do it, it's either awkward, or unsettling, etc. I would have preferred at least having permission to tell the Sisters I was closest to privately, but that wasn't allowed. And honestly, leaving is hard for all involved, no matter how you do it. That's why one enters with the [i]intention[/i] of persevering, I suppose!
[/quote]

As far as I personally was concerned, I would have preferred to have been able to say goodbye and also not to have left in an almost clandestine manner. I think one certainly does have every intention of facing difficulties and persevering without really being aware of the actual difficulties one is going to have to face and one can only 'play the cards in one's hand'. In other words, the difficulties are not necessarily at all those anticipated even remotely, nor is the disposition of oneself at the time anticipated - including possibly the dispositions of others closely connected. And finally, one needs discern God's Will in it all.
I know of one person who left religious life and it was almost a celebration before she did leave. Her decision was out in the open and everyone had the opportunity to wish her well in every way and in a relaxed informal atmosphere as well as praying for her as a community including at her last Mass in religious life. I think probably the community did miss her presence and she certainly missed them but there was a sense of 'closure' for them all. A sense that God's Will was being accomplished and would be accomplished in the journey ahead for all and in all that unfolded - and not a cause for anything hidden or secretive. Personally, I think that this was the ideal way of going about it all and certainly theologically accurate.
It can be forgotten that up to Final Profession, it is a journey of discernment for leadership, community and the individual. This being so, a decision to leave after prayer, due consulation and advice, cannot be in any way a matter for the hidden and secretive - any sort of disgrace. And finally religious life -and not only religious life - is primarily an embracing of The Cross, a detaching from self in some way, and in whatever form it may take or Divine Providence ordains rather.

It is bitter sweet when a person leaves and all share in that bitter sweet.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BarbaraTherese