Forget The President, What About The Marijuana?

[Aloysius]

the Church has not rigidly defined any particular political system, and I seriously doubt that there is anything of a Christian consensus that drugs ought to be criminalized. sure, there's a pontifical council on health, the Vatican says a lot of things, and if we start raising those things to the level of any kind of teaching we're going to have some seriously skitzophrenic and contradictory advice coming at us throughout the centuries. the Church is certainly not libertarian, no, but she also does not have a universal proscription for all states for all times on all matters, and I think it's pretty clear we can disagree as to whether drugs should be legal or illegal and have a reasonable argument based on the facts.

here's a pretty simple and decent argument against the drug war:
[img]http://media.reason.com/mc/mriggs/2012_10/40Years0fDrugWarFailure.jpg[/img]

there is no universe in which our excessively violent response to non-violent drug offenders is in any way mandated by Christian morals, nor in which the vast amounts of money spent on prison sentences for non-violent drug offenders that could be going to much better causes (including treating people medically for the medical problem of addiction) is in any way justified IMO.

[Apotheoun]

Al, I never said that the Church has endorsed a single political system. What I said is that the Libertarian position on moral issues in society, and the role of the State in defending the common good (i.e., protecting the moral norm), is contrary to Catholic moral doctrine. The Church - unlike the Libertarian Party - says that the State is duty bound to oppose any and all attempts to legitimize deviant behavior (e.g., "gay marriage"), and that any person who fails to do what he can to prevent laws or actions that approve of this disgusting immorality has failed to live as he should as a Catholic. Just as pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians should not present themselves for Holy Communion, so too Libertarians who are indifferent to the State's obligation to protect the common good should not present themselves for Holy Communion. Now I have no doubt that you do not agree with what I am saying, because I have been reading your posts here on Phatmass for several months and it is apparent to me that [mod]MIKolbe- personal attack[/mod] I suppose that the moral indifferentism often expressed in your posts is a reflection of the confused time within which we live, and that it is ultimately just another example of the consequences of the bad catechesis that has impacted the life of the Catholic Church over the course of the last 40 years.

Al, I know you do not like it, but it is a fact that the Church's Magisterium has condemned any and all attempts to decriminalize drugs. You may disagree with the Church, but I freely choose to assent to the Church's position on this matter. God bless.

Edited November 10, 2012 by MIkolbe

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352550057' post='2507665']
blah blah church blah
[/quote]

[img]http://media.reason.com/mc/mriggs/2012_10/40Years0fDrugWarFailure.jpg[/img] really looks like that is justified.

want to take a stab at that apo? what exactly is the point of that?

[Apotheoun]

Those who support decriminalizing drugs should provide the Catholic magisterial sources that prove that their position is correct. I am more than willing to read the supporting documentation on this issue.

That said, I would simply point out that as a person who has formally studied theology (including moral theology), I have read speeches, homilies, and exhortations, by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict, along with curial documents, which by the way participate in the Ordinary Magisterium of the Pope, that condemn drug decriminalization; and I have never once seen any official Church document that supports the Libertarian viewpoint on this issue. Nevertheless, perhaps I have overlooked an ecclesial document that approves of drug decriminalization, and if that is the case I welcome those pushing this immoral agenda to post a link to it, so that I can examine it and make an informed judgment on the matter.

What I am not willing to do is to simply accept as Catholic the indifferentist position advocated by various people here at Phatmass, when they say that there is nothing wrong with decriminalization of drugs, because everything I have seen published by the Church says that decriminalization is contrary to the common good of society, to the physical and spiritual good of the human person, and to Catholic moral doctrine. Finally, if I have to chose between what Al or Winchester (or anyone else for that matter) are saying, and what the Church is saying, I will unapologetically side with the Church.

[Aloysius]

I care more about Ron Paul than Jesus Christ? What kind of evil spirit would cause you to spew such vitriol, I wonder? What loss of the unity of the Church's faith would cause you to put simple political disagreements up to such a level? You are absolutely SO FAR outside of where the Church's magisterium actually is on the subject that it's not even funny. Could you show me the Church telling people that they shouldn't present themselves for Holy Communion on the basis that they approve of the Republican, the Democratic, or the Libertarian party?? Can you imagine the damage to the Body of Christ that you are doing by raising up those types of disagreements to the level of heresies? Do you really think that the Pope would be okay with you telling people that and acting like he agreed with such nonsense??? He may certainly be of the opinion that Catholic principles call for criminalizing drugs, just as he is of the opinion that healthcare is a human right and ought to be administered by the state, but he does not in any way abuse the spiritual communion of the Church in the type of disgusting display you just made calling upon people to not present themselves for holy communion because they disagree with a particular political position that is by NO MEANS considered non-negotiable or absolutely defined by the Church. by no means.

BTW, I'm not a libertarian, and I'm not an anarchist. I have some sympathies for some of their causes, but I am neither of them. I actually believe in distributism, and in the small local state that does act to protect the common good, as well as in the larger state protecting the common good on a larger level to a limited degree (whatever balance between subsidiarity and solidarity that is best able to be struck, in different ways for different peoples around the world). But your politicizing of the gospel is absolutely shameful. The Church does not endorse any particular political system, and she does NOT abuse the unity of the Church as some mere glue to hold together a political block. We are free to have political disagreements, we are free to believe that the money waged in the war on drugs is wasteful and ineffective, we are absolutely free to criticize that.

What we are NOT free to do is make utterly erroneous statements advising people not to approach Holy Communion based on intellectual misunderstandings and disagreements. Even if you could hold that the Church has absolutely taught that all drugs must be illegal (I don't think that you can), you CANNOT hold as a tenable position that someone disagreeing with you on that issue should not present themselves for Holy Communion. What are we, a Church or a political party? absolutely disgusting and shameful, I would call on you to apologize for that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1352550793' post='2507669']
[img]http://media.reason.com/mc/mriggs/2012_10/40Years0fDrugWarFailure.jpg[/img] really looks like that is justified.

want to take a stab at that apo? what exactly is the point of that?
[/quote]
Al, I shouldn't have to tell you this, but moral truth and Catholic doctrine are not established by graphs. May God grant you many joyful years.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352551193' post='2507671']
I care more about Ron Paul than Jesus Christ? What kind of evil spirit would cause you to spew such vitriol, I wonder?[/quote]
Al, to be blunt you do seem rather cultishly attached to Ron Paul.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352551193' post='2507671']You are absolutely SO FAR outside of where the Church's magisterium actually is on the subject that it's not even funny. [/quote]
Prove it. Supply your magisterial sources and let's debate moral theology.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Apotheoun' timestamp='1352551256' post='2507672']
Al, I shouldn't have to tell you this, but moral truth and Catholic doctrine are not established by graphs. May God grant you many joyful years.
[/quote]
ah yes, don't confuse you with the facts when you're busy insinuating that particular political strategies are synonymous with Catholic doctrine and can be constructed in a vacuum.

should I be going off to Italy to fight for the restoration of the Papal States yet?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352551507' post='2507675']
ah yes, don't confuse you with the facts when you're busy insinuating that particular political strategies are synonymous with Catholic doctrine and can be constructed in a vacuum.[/quote]
Catholic moral theology is not determined by "studies"; instead, it is established by divine revelation and the use of right reason. I am more than happy to debate moral theology with you on this topic, but so far you have not supplied a single magisterial, papal, or patristic source, to show that what you are saying is anything other than Libertarian political nonsense.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352551507' post='2507675']
should I be going off to Italy to fight for the restoration of the Papal States yet?
[/quote]
Non sequitur. The papal states were never a doctrinal matter, and certainly they were not a part of Catholic moral theology.

[Aloysius]

[quote]
Prove it. Supply your magisterial sources and let's debate moral theology.
[/quote]
How about you first? You made a claim, a very bold claim, that people that disagree with your particular political standpoint should not approach Holy Communion. That is the claim that I am asking you to prove or to rescind, because it is outlandish and the type of evil abuse of the Church that does nothing but put souls in danger.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352551920' post='2507678']
How about you first? You made a claim, a very bold claim, that people that disagree with your particular political standpoint should not approach Holy Communion. That is the claim that I am asking you to prove or to rescind, because it is outlandish and the type of evil abuse of the Church that does nothing but put souls in danger.
[/quote]
Al, it is not a political standpoint, it is moral one. I have already quoted from a document issued by the curia a few years ago that states that decriminalization of drugs is contrary to Catholic teaching, and the CDF has issued several documents saying that the State is duty bound to defend marriage between one man and one woman, and to oppose any and all attempts to legitimize deviant behavior.

Al, all you need to do is supply one magisterial document that supports the Libertarian viewpoint that drugs or "homosexual marriage", to mention just two hot button issues, can be legalized from a Catholic perspective.

[Aloysius]

I am not a libertarian. I do not support the libertarian viewpoint on drugs or homosexual marriage. I believe in decentralizing authority and finding a way to balance subsidiarity and solidarity between local and distant institutions in the way that best promotes human freedom, right order, and the common good. I did not support Ron Paul's answer to the marriage issue, though I did defend it as reasonable from some standpoints.

I'm not really interested in a moral debate as to whether drugs should be legal or not; of far MORE importance to me is the way in which you are making certain political positions synonymous with Catholic doctrine. It is fully within the realm of possibility that Catholic moral principles might call for drugs to be criminal, I'm willing to look into that possibility; what I'm not interested in is the non-intellectual bullying that goes on to shut down a conversation. We can't have a discussion about the chart I posted? About how so much money is wasted while the problem is not dealt with, about how there are better ways of dealing with the problem? Because you have some twisted notion that the Pontifical Council for Healthcare constitutes some formal Church doctrinal position on the subject and therefore all legitimate analysis should be shut down (no wonder people get sick of religious people trying to be involved in politics; anyway, I guarantee you that if the Pontifical Council on Healthcare were meeting they'd be interested in discussing what that chart has to say, because they didn't get together to write a divinely ordered decree, but to engage with the world based on opinions that were informed by their Catholic moral senses). That holds no more weight than the more recent Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace paper ( [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/more-about-the-white-paper-from-the-pontifical-council-for-justice-and-peace/"]http://wdtprs.com/bl...tice-and-peace/[/url] )... for you to rise to the point of calling for people to not present themselves for Holy Communion on the basis of that document? it's unbelievably irresponsible, and completely out of touch with anything the Church's magisterium says anywhere.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Aloysius

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352552809' post='2507684']
I am not a libertarian. I do not support the libertarian viewpoint on drugs or homosexual marriage. I believe in decentralizing authority and finding a way to balance subsidiarity and solidarity between local and distant institutions in the way that best promotes human freedom, right order, and the common good.[/quote]
I am all for decentralization of authority, because that is simply an expression of the principle of subsidiarity, but the local authorities, just like the State or Federal authorities, are not free to simply decriminalize drugs, or approve of abortion or "gay marriage." The civil authorities, and all men of good will, are duty bound to enforce the moral law. That is an ancient Catholic principle, and one that cannot be changed because the moral law is written into man's nature.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352552809' post='2507684']I'm not really interested in a moral debate as to whether drugs should be legal or not; of far MORE importance to me is the way in which you are making certain political positions synonymous with Catholic doctrine. It is fully within the realm of possibility that Catholic moral principles might call for drugs to be criminal, I'm willing to look into that possibility; what I'm not interested in is the non-intellectual bullying that goes on to shut down a conversation. We can't have a discussion about the chart I posted? About how so much money is wasted while the problem is not dealt with, about how there are better ways of dealing with the problem? Because you have some twisted notion that the Pontifical Council for Healthcare constitutes some formal Church doctrinal position on the subject. That holds no more weight than the more recent Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace paper ( [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/more-about-the-white-paper-from-the-pontifical-council-for-justice-and-peace/"]http://wdtprs.com/bl...tice-and-peace/[/url] )... for you to rise to the point of calling for people to not present themselves for Holy Communion on the basis of that document? it's unbelievably irresponsible, and completely out of touch with anything the Church's magisterium says anywhere.
[/quote]
I figured you were not interested in a moral debate, because you seem to avoid anything that has to do with Catholic moral doctrine in most of your posts.

The documents of the various Congregations and Pontifical Councils of the curia participate in the Ordinary Papal Magisterium, and as such they are held to be binding in conscience, or to put it the way Roman Catholic theologians express the matter, submission of mind and will is to be shown to the documents issued by the curia because they have the approval of the pope. To publicly dissent from them is not legitimate.

[Apotheoun]

"I invite the civil authorities, the economic decision-makers and all who have social responsibility to continue and intensify their efforts to improve anti-drug abuse legislation at every level and to oppose all forms of drug culture and trafficking, sources of wealth scandalously acquired by exploiting the frailty of defenseless persons." Pope John Paul II

Taken from: [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1997/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19971011_salute_en.html"]Address of His Holiness Pope John Paul II To A Colloquium on Chemical Dependency[/url]

[Aloysius]

[quote]6. I invite [i]the civil authorities, the economic decision-makers and all who have social responsibility [/i]to continue and intensify their efforts to improve [i]anti-drug [b]abuse [/b]legislation [/i]at every level and to oppose all forms of drug culture and trafficking, sources of wealth scandalously acquired by exploiting the frailty of defenceless persons. I encourage the public authorities, parents, teachers, health-care professionals and Christian communities to be jointly and increasingly involved in [i]the work of prevention [/i]among young people and adults. Wise and accurate medical information must be given especially to young people, stressing the harmful effects of drugs on the physical, intellectual, psychological, social and moral levels. I am aware of [i]the tireless devotion and patience of those who care for and attend to persons ensnared in drugs, and their families. [/i]I invite the parents whose child has a chemical dependency never to despair, to stay in communication with him, to show him their affection and to encourage his contacts with structures that can care for him. A family’s warm attention is a great support for the interior struggle and for the progress of detoxification.[/quote]
I have no disagreements with these sentiments.

I still maintain that you were way out of line when you called on people who disagree on the political means by which drug abuse is dealt with to not present themselves for Holy Communion, though.